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Yes, the upcoming new EV credit with a $55,000 price cap on cars and an $80,000 one on trucks and SUVs is vile.

You are being facetious but there is a kernel of truth there. We do manufacture diamonds as needed but atmospheric CO2 isn't the most easily and economically useable material source. If carbon use for diamond production were to become a significant climate change contributor though, requiring it...

I also don't think the folks here arguing high efficiency battery "round trip" are basing it from the coal mine, which is thing we have to stop. :rolleyes:

All energy storage processes waste energy. There is waste in all of our transport of it, in all of our use of it. Look at the horrendous waste of ICE. That obviously is not the sole deciding factor whether their use is economically practical. Or it should be obvious at any rate. Waste is a...

No, hydrogen really and truly is abundant and everywhere around us, mostly locked with oxygen as plain water. That's a really great thing, because unlike the fossil fuels you mention, which we need to replace with clean fuels, the hydrogen separation and recombination process is endlessly...

Wow, you really need help with that? A clean fuel to replace use of fossil fuels.

Me clueless? I wasn't the who thought alchemy was a relevant argument. Research on hydrogen as a clean fuel is real and productive, you just don't like it, a personal bias you haven't been able to justify so you stoop to name calling. 😄

Well, if you have some good alchemy proposals you should write them up and submit them. Transmutation is a viable avenue of research, but while I don't see how it applies to clean energy solutions to replace fossil fuel use, if you have a case for it you definitely should make it.

I'm glad they are using a bit of mine. More for clean energy research of all kinds would be better for everyone. It is extraordinarily provincial of a clean energy advocate of one form to be an obstacle to others. I'm sure that sort of bickering tickles the fossil fuel industry with the same...

That is the challenge of every fuel source. That is the purpose of R&D. I question why anyone would insist on closing off any avenues.

That makes no sense at all. You can't say it isn't readily available at the same time you say it is abundant. Not only is it abundant, it is immediately at hand. Our job is to process it into its most useful forms for our various needs. We know multiple ways, research is finding more and working...

Not really. The real question is how to make it economically competitive. Compressed hydrogen is not the only way to store and release it. Productive research on that is already being applied in multiple cases. Getting down to the very fundamentals, we should be learning as much as we can about...

We always have to ask that and determine how to manage them. That, after all, applies to every energy solution, including batteries. And every solution is of course situational. What matters is replacing as many fossil fuel use cases as possible with clean ones. The more tools at our disposal...

But the basic physics say hydrogen can do the job, it already does do the job economically in the right circumstances. The issues to be researched are how to produce, store and transport it more economically without dirty energy source inputs. Economic efficiency is not the same as physics...

May be. That's exactly why we need to research all avenues. I am not a hydrogen advocate; I am an opponent of those pushing don't waste money looking at anything but my favorite solution, and heaping derision on everything else. It's a fact of history that game-changing breakthroughs happen...

The problems of using hydrogen for aviation may be huge but not as huge as trying to use batteries. The problems of continuing to use fossil fuels are catastrophic. If you don't see a huge rush to roll out wind farms you are simply not paying attention, but those are still not the only ways to...

That's a distraction. They don't need research on blue hydrogen, they know exactly how to do it and have been doing it. Research and development in how to store, transport and most appropriately and efficiently use it will apply equally to green hydrogen, so it's a net win. It's the same issue...

False is false, you know, the opposite of true. Ever increasing amounts of green hydrogen are being produced. I realize that galls you, but denial, as with climate change, isn't going to help. Again, claims without supporting facts. Two factors are what matter. First, does it replace fossil...

The percentage does not make your statement other than false. And the percentage is climbing, which is the whole point of investment and research. The efficiency and effectiveness of the overall use case is all that matters practically and economically. If the power to produce green hydrogen is...

Every single polluting, climate-wrecking diesel, gasoline and natural gas backup generator is the target market. Batteries can only provide power short term compared to stored liquid or gas fuel, that hours compared to days or even weeks if necessary. I am surprised, even cheered, though still...

No, that's blatantly false, all hydrogen does not come from natural gas. It is also not true that it is always less efficient to produce hydrogen, even intermediately via hydrolysis from electricity. It depends on the source of the power and uses of the hydrogen. Neither is the implication...

So, you don't agree with the article that it is a key pioneering project, a culmination of important research and proving the utility and feasibility of hydrogen systems replacing the many, many, many diesel backup generation systems? Why is that? I am fine with the arguments here against the...

When I post anything pro-hydrogen that doesn't agree with the shut-it-down consensus I get accused of trolling, but: https://news.microsoft.com/innovation-stories/hydrogen-fuel-cells-could-provide-emission-free-backup-power-at-datacenters-microsoft-says/...

WOW, fast work!

Well there you go. Congratulations! Your financial circumstances changed and you consolidated. You bought a home and an EV and installed solar panels. Do you really think you are typical?

They are not useless if they take a Jetta TDI off the road, they are doing their incremental bit to save the planet, just like your solar panels, which you need to install more of.

Now you can see the future. 😆 I already explained the credit card thing to you. People mostly don't pay off their credit cards, and they really don't get credit cards that only charge 4% interest, even 15% is a bargain. When people do pay off credit cards it is not because they are suddenly...

They are not wasted if they go to getting an ICE vehicle off the road. Hydrogen vehicles ARE EVs. You have no basis whatsoever for the supposition they would otherwise go to battery vehicles. I suppose generally every dollar wasted on chocolate could go to EVs, and there have billions wasted...

You are off the track again. We need clean vehicles to displace dirty ones. The sooner we get on with that the more we reduce the threat to our continued existence. If someone is motivated to make hydrogen vehicles that do that how dare you get in their way? It is the definition of...

And I keep telling you it isn't. If someone's project is to promote the sale of a hydrogen vehicle one of the biggest objections for the target market is that hydrogen is dirty and the simple response is to build production of green hydrogen to fuel it. It may be a game like big corporations are...

I can't help that you can't see what is in front of your face. I keep telling you green hydrogen, not brown, not blue, but you just can't seem to pay attention. I am not talking about hydrogen from methane, but if you want to go there, yes there are possibilities worth investigating even...

1. You aren't? Why not? Others are, and it is critical to any cost-effective use of green hydrogen. Dirty hydrogen is a key objection of potential hydrogen vehicle purchasers, just as coal-fired electricity is to battery vehicles. The idea of blue hydrogen is just a sop to oil companies. The...

LOLOL, you cannot deny that renewables have become less expensive and EVs have become more numerous, it's pathetic to try. For one thing it is no coincidence many owners of EVs are also owners of solar panels. Each reinforces the value of the other. China is both the largest producer of solar...

You have answered your own questions incorrectly.

ROFLMAO That's what they always say. Seriously, financial restrictions depend upon the cost-effectiveness of the entire use case, not a single link in the chain.

1. You can't predict that definitively, one thing being worked on is economical small scale point of use generation of hydrogen, such as at fueling stations. 2. "nobody has come up with" YET. There is no restriction on generating hydrogen only from surplus renewable. There is no reason not to...

Backwards, backwards, backwards. Renewables didn't just magically become cheaper, people have had to work on that for decades, driven by demand from whatever use cases would fund them. Not all use cases need to be practical, actually most probably aren't. They only need to be cost-effective for...

You realize that's what they always said about renewables, right? That's the entire problem, you should be working to get that fixed rather than naysaying folks who are.

I think it insanely short-sight to limit the search for better green energy vehicles to one alternative. I told you I am not advocating hydrogen vehicles over battery, but I am also not advocating battery as the only avenue over every other possibility as you are. LEDs didn't reduce demand for...

Backwards yet again. The demand for better energy-efficient lighting to save consumers money drove the development first of improved fluorescents and ultimately the highly versatile LEDs that we all love. All this in spite of naysayers telling us LED technology was too expensive for ordinary...

You're not paying attention, that's more demand for more projects that will move the technologies forward so that we can produce more at less cost. This is exactly what has happened with renewables such as wind and solar. It is what has happened with battery technology, the use cases have driven...

You are just too narrow-minded, oops sorry, I mean tightly focused. Things will progress as they always do, when demand and creativity drive countless small steps of technological improvements and innovative breakthroughs that sidestep the narrow paths of obstacles that you see in the laws of...

No, just let it go and stop taking it to the extreme. It is absolutely ludicrous to insist people not make their preferred use of clean energy until your favored priorities are met. It takes tackling the problem everywhere possibilities exist, and transportation is 25% percent of the problem...

LOLOL, I'm not saying we should make the Model S need 50% more energy, I said that even if did it would still be a far better choice than diesel. Toyota did not develop the Mirai to be a compelling competitive car; it did not develop it to take sales away from Lexus. It was built as a...

You still have it backward, the goal is to shift to green energy. I even stated from your solar panels, if it needed twice as much you can install twice as much. Displacement is bogus if you are creating green energy production to fulfill. the demand. Your diesel which you would rather continue...

An EV using green energy isn't emitting any CO2.

Exactly, they didn't motivate the CONSUMER. That's what I keep telling nwdiver, he has it backwards, you must start with creating demand.

It's people who ought to know better making choices damaging to the planet who are part of the problem. If the EV had the same range but took twice as much energy from your solar panels it would still be a far better choice than the diesel, particularly one cheating on government regulations.

The real point is that it just does not work that way. It is not best physics that will get the job done, it is greatest motivation. People are not buying Teslas because physics says they are the most efficient use of energy, Tesla made them desirable, performance and cost-competitive with the...