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I would agree in some circumstances FSD is not "useable" but stating that as a broad brush is not accurate. Depends on the driving environment and the type of roads you're driving. On many less complex drives it can work really well. It's about learning what FSD does well and not so well. If you feel it's "mostly" dangerous then you probably shouldn't be a FSD beta tester.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
You should've highlighted the sentence directly before the one you did as well to provide context for what he said- that was ". It is failing at basic tasks"
His post as I read it wasn't nobody's ever finding an edge case, it was that it's not primarily what is happening because it also fails at so many relatively basic or common tasks (or just does them poorly like taking way too long to handle intersections with clear visibility with needless creeping).
This isn't at the "march of the 9s" part yet where it's all just knocking out rare edge cases. It's still failing at fundamental parts of recognition, pathing, and driving.
A system that still sometimes lane changes into oncoming traffic on a straight road (as my car did on 10.8 last week) is not primarily "testing edge cases", it's in need of fundamental improvement.
Elon seems to agree, as on the Lex interview he explained they're doing Yet Another Fundamental Rewrite. He thinks THIS time it's going to be The Solution.
But again- nobody, Elon included, knows what the actual solution for safe generalized L4+ driving is. He's thought he knew- at least 3 or 4 times now- and been wrong each time on both HW and SW.
Waymo thinks they know too- yet they remain primarily stuck with a tiny fleet in 1 tiny suburb for public use. Cruise and all the others think they know too.
But until someone actually gets it right- nobody actually knows.
But tl;dr- A system that's mainly there just to find and test edge cases wouldn't fail so often in "normal" use as what the beta is now.- and it wouldn't need yet another major rework.
AP/NOA/EAP and FSD beta have actually been doing well on edge cases. AP has been avoiding pedestrians , bikers, etc. for years. Once engaged it has been able to drive on unpaved, unmarked roads well over a year and safely pass oncoming traffic. The only thing it couldn't do was make turns at intersections ( "city streets"). FSD beta is not good at all at that and has introduced bad glitches into things it used to do well. Lex's interview with Musk has deepened my pessimism that only a few months ago was optimism.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
In the beta? Yeah there's a button the screen explicitly for sending in a snapshot of the system as a report, and there's an email address provided to beta users for sending additional info.
I had to laugh when you said that you were an EE. Before retiring I was a SW guy and remember SW / HW always blaming the other for problems with a design.
I agree that turns are the biggest area of improvement for FSD and it's taking a long time. But you have to agree that it is getting better even if "too slow" in the areas we need. Besides being indecisive in turns my biggest wish for improvement is for stops where I'm in the right lane where there is no dedicated right turn lane. The car should either hug the left side of the lane so others who are turning right can go OR if I'm turning right get over as far as possible to the right. Now it splits the difference and pisses off both people trying to turn right and others that are going straight.
There's a difference between a system that can't solve vs hasn't solved a situation. There's also a difference between building a system that can't fail vs doesn't fail.
At least for us since 10.2, there have been multiple versions (more significantly with 10.5 and 10.8) that no longer drive towards oncoming traffic for complex intersections here. When compared to pre-FSD, just going to 10.2 correctly handled ~75% of these tricky intersections already, and at least so far, maybe ~5% of these angled/shifted/crested/large intersections around here still have problems.
Unclear if these have improved because we've been sending back videos of these specific problems, but theoretically the neural network should be able to generalize to other intersections that are similar in other cities. In particular, there are large intersections at highway interchanges (SPUI - Single-Point Urban Interchange) that earlier betas probably weren't predicting accurately from far away but should now generally be better as that road design is relatively similar for many cities.
I must say that after watching Dirty Tesla videos, I expected a lot better from 10.8.
What was most disappointing is that FSD is mostly useless in the small rural area where I drive. In my neighborhood, the car tries to crash through gates, runs a stop sign, repeatedly stops for non-existent traffic control, does a terrible job with auto headlights, and takes a 20-minute detour instead of a 3-minute direct route (not new, but more of an annoyance when the car gets to drive).
Outside the neighborhood, it misses turns, crosses into a traffic lane and stops in front of oncoming traffic, changes from the driving lane into the opposing lane randomly on a clearly marked two-lane road, heads for the ditch or tries to run over the curb on some poorly marked acute angled intersections, drives down the center of roads without centerlines, tries to go 25 mph through a parking lot, uses the turn signal going around curves and is especially clueless on very secondary roads in the dark.
What was most disappointing is that FSD is mostly useless in the small rural area where I drive. In my neighborhood, the car tries to crash through gates, runs a stop sign, repeatedly stops for non-existent traffic control, does a terrible job with auto headlights, and takes a 20-minute detour instead of a 3-minute direct route (not new, but more of an annoyance when the car gets to drive).
Outside the neighborhood, it misses turns, crosses into a traffic lane and stops in front of oncoming traffic, changes from the driving lane into the opposing lane randomly on a clearly marked two-lane road, heads for the ditch or tries to run over the curb on some poorly marked acute angled intersections, drives down the center of roads without centerlines, tries to go 25 mph through a parking lot, uses the turn signal going around curves and is especially clueless on very secondary roads in the dark.
Gotta sorta wonder about the value Tesla's team is getting based on them now burying the snapshot button outside of the visualization screen and making it that little bit more difficult to access in the new UI.
You do not deprioritize and bury an input feeding you lots of great data, you make it as easy to access as possible. So either that's just a big oversight which might not be surprising given the feedback regarding the UI updates, or these changes could inform your opinion about what Tesla is getting out of people pressing that button.
Try recalibrating your cameras to see if it’ll help with some of the issues. But you’re right, these fanboi channels are rough because they tend to only highlight the good stuff and edit out the bad.
Unfortunately if they started to bash FSD, it’d probably affect all of us negatively and possibly get them removed from the FSD beta. I don’t know if there’s truly a win in this situation.
The only thing I wish they would fix is phantom braking. That should be 100% 1st priority. If we can’t even drive straight normally, then what difference does it make if we could turn left or right.
I don’t see any UI changes on the refresh MS so it’s hard to judge. It looks just like the UI 10.x looked.
I recalibrated the cameras a couple of weeks before I got the Beta.
I don't want to leave the impression that FSD doesn't work. It was very reliable on a long trip I took. I see videos around San Francisco and Ann Arbor on YouTube, and I expect my car would do just as well.
But in rural areas where roads aren't exactly like other places, where road connections are more ad hoc and it's not clear what is road and what is grass, the car just doesn't understand. Plus the maps are all wrong.
There’s one spot by my house that is super annoying in terms of maps. My community is at a T intersection of two roads, so pretty much a 4 way intersection with one stop sign on community side and one on the road that Ts into the main road. Well the mapping thinks that to get in or leave my community and go onto the road that Ts in, it needs to make a quick left and then a quick right, which is false because it literally just needs to go straight across the main road. I get caught up at this all the time with the car turning on the turn signal and sitting there confused as hell.
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
We have a highway near us that every time I go over this rise the car almost lifts off the ground, and since AP has been around I get the disconnect and the beeping full screen image of grabbing the wheel in red. Now that I made it into the beta program hopefully that bit of video finally makes it into the training for the car.
FSDtester#1
Craves Electrolytes
My phantom braking hasn't gotten better with any updates. I agree 100% this should be fixed asap. I have a 1 mile stretch from a main road to my neighborhood with a 35 mph limit. During that 1 mile I get 7 to 8 slowdowns every time. I hit the report button all 7 or 8 times!!
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