10.9 FSD

[Ruffles]

I also think the 10.9 rollout was stopped by the NHTSA with their recall request . I've been on 10.9 and feel it's the best version yet. FYI - here are some details on the stop sign roll. In my opinion, autonomous cars should try to drive like humans instead of following the letter of the law and the conditions they put around the roll seem reasonable to me.

The “rolling stop” functionality is designed to allow the vehicle to travel through an all-way-stop intersection without coming to a complete stop when several operating conditions are first met. The required conditions include:

1. The functionality must be enabled within the FSD Beta Profile settings; and
2. The vehicle must be approaching an all-way stop intersection; and
3. The vehicle must be traveling below 5.6mph; and
4. No relevant moving cars are detected near the intersection; and
5. No relevant pedestrians or bicyclists are detected near the intersection; and
6. There is sufficient visibility for the vehicle while approaching the intersection; and
7. All roads entering the intersection have a speed limit of 30 mph or less.

If all the above conditions are met, only then will the vehicle travel through the all-way-stop intersection at a speed from 0.1 mph up to 5.6 mph without first coming to a complete stop. If any of the above conditions are not met, the functionality will not activate and the vehicle will come to a complete stop.

 

[momo3605]

I also think the 10.9 rollout was stopped by the NHTSA with their recall request . I've been on 10.9 and feel it's the best version yet. FYI - here are some details on the stop sign roll. In my opinion, autonomous cars should try to drive like humans instead of following the letter of the law and the conditions they put around the roll seem reasonable to me.

1. The functionality must be enabled within the FSD Beta Profile settings; and
2. The vehicle must be approaching an all-way stop intersection; and
3. The vehicle must be traveling below 5.6mph; and
4. No relevant moving cars are detected near the intersection; and
5. No relevant pedestrians or bicyclists are detected near the intersection; and
6. There is sufficient visibility for the vehicle while approaching the intersection; and
7. All roads entering the intersection have a speed limit of 30 mph or less.

On top of that, I don’t think anyone including myself has seen FSD roll at > 2mph. The conditions must have to be extraordinary to allow up to 5.6.

 

[Mardak]

I thought the most interesting info was that the next update will be 2021.44.30.15 (or later) and it’ll be out in early Feb

The "rolling stop" recall report says this new firmware 2021.44.30.15+ voluntary recall determination was decided on January 20th. Looks like Tesla has some leeway in how quickly to deploy as other manufacturers have turnaround times of months (even years?) to have the customer bring in the vehicle to a dealership to fix something. Compared to the FSD Beta 10.3 false FCW recall report, Tesla already began deploying 10.3.1 on October 25th -- a day before the voluntary recall determination.

 

[Lowchrg]

I thought the most interesting info was that the next update will be 2021.44.30.15 (or later) and it’ll be out in early Feb.

Since I’m already on 2022.4 I probably have zero chance of getting into the beta now until FSD hits the 2022.4 branch.

My theory is they just had to say this and 2021.44.30.15 is code for 10.9.1 so it will be compiled into a 2022.x before wide push.

 

[Lowchrg]

My theory is they just had to say this and 2021.44.30.15 is code for 10.9.1 so it will be compiled into a 2022.x before wide push.

Update History - Teslascope

View historical data of Tesla software updates.

teslascope.com

Guess I was wrong.

 

[j0shm1lls]

Hopefully this is a quick rollout.

 

[EVJAutoJunkie]

This new 2021.44.30.15 seems to answer a lot of questions as to why 10.9 updates had halted. It paints a clearer picture that maybe Tesla was not intentionally limiting the 10.9 rollout to fewer cars, just because. I should have made that connection as soon as the news about the safety board taking a look at Tesla's FSD broke over a couple weeks ago.


That said, I will expect most cars to get x.30.15 before the end of the week.

 

[Reddy Kilowatt]

@rpo and @Reddy Kilowatt did either of you get new parts?

I suspect the OTA potentially bricked the ECU, causing the buttons to stop working. If the ECU is truly bricked, then it must be physically replaced. But if the bootloader can still be flashed, then another update could restore its functionality and 'undue' the corruption in code.

When I was working at Tesla, we implemented the ability to 'unbrick' an ECU and I wonder if that has somehow failed.

You can read up on what I'm talking about here: Understanding What is Flash Bootloader | ECU Reprogramming

No they keep delaying my service visit. Still bricked on two of our cars.

 

[Discoducky]

No they keep delaying my service visit. Still bricked on two of our cars.

If enough cars are bricked, then they'll work tirelessly to figure out if they can un-corrupt the bootloader.

If it's a much less amount, they'll eventually give up and replace the hardware.

I'd expect this to play out in about 2 to 4 weeks at most.

Hang in there!

 

[aronth5]

On top of that, I don’t think anyone including myself has seen FSD roll at > 2mph. The conditions must have to be extraordinary to allow up to 5.6.

There are many Youtube videos showing FSD rolls up to 5-7mph but they were earlier in the FSD beta program so more recent FSD beta testers would not have experienced them.
Here is an example where it only slowed down to 4mph

 

[Dan D.]

There are many Youtube videos showing FSD rolls up to 5-7mph but they were earlier in the FSD beta program so more recent FSD beta testers would not have experienced them.

One of the discussion points about the "move fast and break things" development pace is that it's tough to monitor. Let's say FSD used to do something badly, then it got better, then it got bad again, how do we keep track?

This is why the airline industry has such onerous regulation processes, they have to prove stability, and declare changes. FSD changes constantly, possibly even Tesla has a difficult time knowing exactly what each version was doing.

Often we hear apologists saying "yes it used to do [that], but the latest update fixed it". Which IMO is not a lot different than saying "yes I used to smoke and shoplift, but I just quit last week, I don't do that anymore". Historical practice does matter, we can't explain away something we did, just because we don't do it today. Also, because we may do it again. That's why they have to create regulations, to prevent reoccurrence.

 

[planetary]

One of the discussion points about the "move fast and break things" development pace is that it's tough to monitor. Let's say FSD used to do something badly, then it got better, then it got bad again, how do we keep track?

You collect data for each version / cohort, and monitor for regressions. This is a solved problems in large software companies, I assure you.

 

[drtimhill]

This is why the airline industry has such onerous regulation processes, they have to prove stability, and declare changes. FSD changes constantly, possibly even Tesla has a difficult time knowing exactly what each version was doing.

Just saying that Kitty Hawk would never have been licensed to fly if the FAA had been around at that time

 

[Daniel in SD]

Just saying that Kitty Hawk would never have been licensed to fly if the FAA had been around at that time

If you built it today with modern materials you could probably get it under the 254lb limit for ultralights which do not require certification.

 

[Wnuk]

I've never seen a roll through even with the assertive setting. Most of the time I am nudging the accelerator to encourage it to go when the coast is clear!

Had a great drive on 10.9 today. Several trouble areas in the past were excellent today. 22 mile drive including city, freeway, and rural roads. Zero disengagements, 1 encouragement at stop sign, and a just a few micro phantom braking incidents.

Unfortunately, I may take the same drive tomorrow with different results.

 

[Reddy Kilowatt]

There are many Youtube videos showing FSD rolls up to 5-7mph but they were earlier in the FSD beta program so more recent FSD beta testers would not have experienced them.
Here is an example where it only slowed down to 4mph

I have driven over 10,000 miles on beta and never had my roll through a stop sign. I'm usually nudging the gas pedal to GO! I think I automatically know where to nudge the gas pedal or hit the stalk and change lanes before the car forgets to. I'm not on the aggressive setting, but the middle one which they said it could roll through a stop sign.

 

[Mardak]

I have driven over 10,000 miles on beta and never had my roll through a stop sign. I'm usually nudging the gas pedal to GO!

Tesla could calculate statistics on how often the rolling stop conditions are even satisfied, and like your experience, it's probably not that frequent. I wonder if the NHTSA discussions were specifically about rolling stops or more generally about FSD Beta, and this was something Tesla was willing to trade for some other leeway. And as FSD Beta is a driver assist anyway, one can always still press the accelerator if desired.

Seems like we still don't know whether this latest FSD Beta release with 2021.44.30.15 is 10.9.1 vs 10.10. Although potentially given the slow / "standard" internal rollout for the rolling stops removal instead of an urgent "quick fix," maybe there's more to the release?

 

[akp47]

Looks like FSD beta 10.10 release note is out:

Tesla FSD Beta 10.10 release notes leak ahead of official release [2021.44.30.15]

Tesla’s Full Self-Driving (FSD) Beta software has been in headlines today after the NTHSA issued a “recall” for the rolling stop functionality, first introduced in October 2020. According to the recall notice, Tesla will remove […]

driveteslacanada.ca

 

[EVJAutoJunkie]

Tesla could calculate statistics on how often the rolling stop conditions are even satisfied, and like your experience, it's probably not that frequent. I wonder if the NHTSA discussions were specifically about rolling stops or more generally about FSD Beta, and this was something Tesla was willing to trade for some other leeway. And as FSD Beta is a driver assist anyway, one can always still press the accelerator if desired.

Seems like we still don't know whether this latest FSD Beta release with 2021.44.30.15 is 10.9.1 vs 10.10. Although potentially given the slow / "standard" internal rollout for the rolling stops removal instead of an urgent "quick fix," maybe there's more to the release?

It appears to be 10.10.

 

[GranularHail]

I've never seen a roll through even with the assertive setting. Most of the time I am nudging the accelerator to encourage it to go when the coast is clear!

Had a great drive on 10.9 today. Several trouble areas in the past were excellent today. 22 mile drive including city, freeway, and rural roads. Zero disengagements, 1 encouragement at stop sign, and a just a few micro phantom braking incidents.

Unfortunately, I may take the same drive tomorrow with different results.

Weird - FSD rolls every stop for me when no other cars are around (and the rest of the things are true: <30 mph speed limits, etc.), and I'm always set to the Chill FSD profile. Usually it's around 2-3 mph, but sometimes 5-6 mph.

I don't understand why the NHTSA is calling this a safety issue. For one, it's slightly less energy usage, resulting in less power generation emissions that have their own safety issues. However, it's really only unsafe if you believe the limitations on the rolling stop feature were insufficient, or you believe the car can't reliably determine if the conditions at this stop sign are within those limitations. The limitations seem pretty iron clad to me, and even if that was what the NHTSA took issue with, the solution is to adjust those conditions, not remove the feature. Therefore, the argument is that FSD can't reliably determine if the conditions are in line with those limitations.

The problem is that making that determination uses the same inputs and processing that are used for the entire rest of the driving task (i.e. where do I / don't I see cars/VRU's/static objects, what will they do in the near future, and how confident am I in those observations/predictions). So, if rolling stops can't be done "safely" because that perception is unreliable, then neither can any other driving assistance task (yes there's a human backup, but that's the same for stop signs and regular driving). If regular driving is "unsafe" with ADAS like FSD, then the NHTSA should be outlawing all driver assistance tech, which would prevent us from getting over this phase of development to the obviously massively-safer future where robo-cars are much safer than human-operated cars.

So at the very least, considering only the rolling stops feature of FSD unsafe is irrational, and at worst, it leads to a line of thinking that is much, much less safe in the long run.