100% green power charges going down

[Vostok]

While this topic is not Tesla specific, it’s in tune with the “mission”.

I’ve been a 100% GreenPower customer for 20 years. Over that time the surcharges have been as much as 8c per kWh if I remember correctly. But eventually the cost reductions in renewable energy have gradually worked their way through the system and the premiums slowly went down. Earlier this year I switched to a solar plan with 21c FIT and 100% GreenPower charge of 4.5c, one of the lowest in the market at the time.

I’ve just been notified that this charge will be reduced to 2.8c per kWh, saving $17 per MWh. But it makes me wonder at what point will GreenPower charges disappear, or even better, GreenPower costs less than DirtyPower! Wouldn’t that be a great day!

(although I suspect the cost reductions would then just flow through to general tariffs and us loyal GreenPower customers would not get any ‘payback’ for our long term support )

 

[corndog]

I was on 100% Green Power for a few years up until recently. I have wondered why there is a surcharge at all, given the claims that renewables are now cheaper than coal and gas. I know that gentailers are investing significantly in renewables anyway, so I guess the surcharge just helps accelerate that transition. Now that I've got my Model 3 I've switched over to AGL's EV plan, which is cheaper than my previous plan and 100% Carbon offset, without a surcharge.

 

[paulp]

While this topic is not Tesla specific, it’s in tune with the “mission”.

I’ve been a 100% GreenPower customer for 20 years. Over that time the surcharges have been as much as 8c per kWh if I remember correctly. But eventually the cost reductions in renewable energy have gradually worked their way through the system and the premiums slowly went down. Earlier this year I switched to a solar plan with 21c FIT and 100% GreenPower charge of 4.5c, one of the lowest in the market at the time.

I’ve just been notified that this charge will be reduced to 2.8c per kWh, saving $17 per MWh. But it makes me wonder at what point will GreenPower charges disappear, or even better, GreenPower costs less than DirtyPower! Wouldn’t that be a great day!

(although I suspect the cost reductions would then just flow through to general tariffs and us loyal GreenPower customers would not get any ‘payback’ for our long term support )

My Green Power costs me nothing, and I no longer get a FIT as its all sent to my powerwalls

 

[Vostok]

I have wondered why there is a surcharge at all, given the claims that renewables are now cheaper than coal and gas.

New renewable generation is cheaper than new coal, but generally not cheaper than established coal, since with the latter the sunk cost has been largely amortised so it’s an unfair accounting fight and why surcharges existed.

Having said that, grid scale solar and wind are at the point where in some markets where they are cheaper than even the marginal cost of established coal plants. And when that happens, the fossil fuel generation market is upended and legacy generators are at risk of going broke. We are possibly arriving at that point soon in Australia!

 

[Vostok]

My Green Power costs me nothing, and I no longer get a FIT as its all sent to my powerwalls

That’s great, so you’re completely off-grid Paul? Not a single grid kWh drawn?

In inner parts of Sydney, houses are usually not very big, and usually very close to each other, or have common walls, or are built right to the property boundary on 2, 3 or even all 4 sides. Due to the laws of physics and current solar panel efficiencies, it is usually impossible to fit enough solar panels on a small roof to generate enough power to meet all power needs of the residence at all times, even with an infinite number of Powerwalls to store every bit of excess. Also available roof plane azimuths may be very suboptimal for solar generation, or roofs may be extremely overshadowed.

I am extremely lucky that my house is exceptionally well positioned overshadowing-wise and with almost ideal azimuth and roof pitch for maximum solar generation. Even then, with the maximum number of super-high-efficiency solar panels that I could cram onto every permissible roof plane, we will only just generate as much solar over the year as total power we consumed.

 

[paulp]

That’s great, so you’re completely off-grid Paul? Not a single grid kWh drawn?

In inner parts of Sydney, houses are usually not very big, and usually very close to each other, or have common walls, or are built right to the property boundary on 2, 3 or even all 4 sides. Due to the laws of physics and current solar panel efficiencies, it is usually impossible to fit enough solar panels on a small roof to generate enough power to meet all power needs of the residence at all times, even with an infinite number of Powerwalls to store every bit of excess. Also available roof plane azimuths may be very suboptimal for solar generation, or roofs may be extremely overshadowed.

I am extremely lucky that my house is exceptionally well positioned overshadowing-wise and with almost ideal azimuth and roof pitch for maximum solar generation. Even then, with the maximum number of super-high-efficiency solar panels that I could cram onto every permissible roof plane, we will only just generate as much solar over the year as total power we consumed.

My comment was my green power costs me nothing, not my power. Ie my solar panels and powerwall give me free renewable power.
In any case over the course of a year our solar creates more power than we use, by a big margin, so I guess I’ll still be exporting in summer (powerwall is a month old). Given I’m in SA, almost all of our grid power is renewable.
I’ll have no problem going off grid from about september to may. Those three winter months are a bit tricky due to the very variable weather.

 

[EcoCloudIT]

That’s great, so you’re completely off-grid Paul? Not a single grid kWh drawn?

In inner parts of Sydney, houses are usually not very big, and usually very close to each other, or have common walls, or are built right to the property boundary on 2, 3 or even all 4 sides. Due to the laws of physics and current solar panel efficiencies, it is usually impossible to fit enough solar panels on a small roof to generate enough power to meet all power needs of the residence at all times, even with an infinite number of Powerwalls to store every bit of excess. Also available roof plane azimuths may be very suboptimal for solar generation, or roofs may be extremely overshadowed.

I am extremely lucky that my house is exceptionally well positioned overshadowing-wise and with almost ideal azimuth and roof pitch for maximum solar generation. Even then, with the maximum number of super-high-efficiency solar panels that I could cram onto every permissible roof plane, we will only just generate as much solar over the year as total power we consumed.

I'm with @paulp my draw from the grid with battery and large (not as large as Paul's) solar array is negligible.

See below this month (last week in Melbourne had dreadful weather):

 

[Vostok]

My comment was my green power costs me nothing, not my power. Ie my solar panels and powerwall give me free renewable power.

Everyone who has solar panels generates ‘free’ (post-sunk-cost) renewable power. That’s not the issue of this thread though. For those who remain grid connected (i.e. just about everyone) then there’s almost no excuse, particularly among those who want to reduce their carbon footprint, to not buy 100% GreenPower from the grid now the premiums are getting so small.

In any case over the course of a year our solar creates more power than we use, by a big margin, so I guess I’ll still be exporting in summer (powerwall is a month old). Given I’m in SA, almost all of our grid power is renewable.

According to NEM Watch, SA renewable generation averages around 50-55% of the total, which while very impressive, is not “almost all”. It does get up to 70-80% at times though (and, conversely, down to 20-30%). The balance is provided by gas or NEM imports. I assume 100% GreenPower is available to customers in SA who don’t want to buy their kWh’s from gas generators?

Nem Watch

 

[Vostok]

I'm with @paulp my draw from the grid with battery and large (not as large as Paul's) solar array is negligible.

At the end of this month I’ll be able to do the full-year stats for my PW2/Solar install and post in the Fun with Powerwall 2 stats... thread. It looks at this stage my self-powered percentage over the year will be in the vicinity of 80%, maybe a touch under.

 

[paulp]

Everyone who has solar panels generates ‘free’ (post-sunk-cost) renewable power. That’s not the issue of this thread though. For those who remain grid connected (i.e. just about everyone) then there’s almost no excuse, particularly among those who want to reduce their carbon footprint, to not buy 100% GreenPower from the grid now the premiums are getting so small.


According to NEM Watch, SA renewable generation averages around 50-55% of the total, which while very impressive, is not “almost all”. It does get up to 70-80% at times though (and, conversely, down to 20-30%). The balance is provided by gas or NEM imports. I assume 100% GreenPower is available to customers in SA who don’t want to buy their kWh’s from gas generators?

Nem Watch

There have been a significant number of occasions where SA’s renewable generators have provided 100% of the State’s power demand. As we are not yet connected to NSW or TAS we cant increase our renewables without building more. We therefore consume, as a state, all the renewable energy that we can. Whether I buy it or someone else buys it is irrelevant. The key thing is its all being used and more is being built. Other than SA already has australia’s most expensive power, I dont pay more for using the grid renewables. No renewable power is going to waste, unlike old power stations which are starting to see periods of nothing

 

[jamesgo]

So for the Melbourne people here, who's a good power retailer to go through if you have a EV?

AGL have their EV rate with $240 per year rebate and lower tariff for EV owners

 

[Bluebay]

So for the Melbourne people here, who's a good power retailer to go through if you have a EV?

AGL have their EV rate with $240 per year rebate and lower tariff for EV owners

I am with AGL in Sydney, and thought I would take a look.

At the moment I get 18% off for early or prompt payment, plus I have the gas with them.

If I change to EV plan the 25% off the reference rate then equals my 18% off my existing rate. So they both end up at 26cents per kw hours. So the only benefit is then $240 per year as a credit. Actually their 26 cents EV rate might already factor in the credit - tried their chat but they do not know - told me to phone the solar division tomorrow... I also do not know if their EV rate uses Green power or not.

Anyone know of a better deal in Sydney ? (Without time restrictions etc)

 

[Hairyman]

Do you have a house battery?

 

[jamesgo]

So i've got a Tesla Powerwall as well, just logged into my AGL account and saw that they are tracking the Powerwall in there as well with the battery level and charge status. I'm part of their Bring your own Battery Virtual Power Plant.

About the car charging, there are lots of free charging options around me so for the past >6 months I haven't had to charge at home.

 

[Hairyman]

I’m now with Powershop and they have an EV arrangement that sells you very cheap power between midnight and 4am - when you can charge your car etc, but is quite expensive from 2pm to 8pm so you need a battery to get past the sun going down.

It is saving me a fair bit of money even at the moment when the days are short and I’m heating the house in the evening. This is because I have the battery management set for maximum power saving and the battery will charge itself midnight to 4am if needed. They pay me more for exported power during the day than I buy it for overnight. I’m in NSW so that may make a difference. I do charge mostly at home so that will also make a big difference.

 

[Vostok]

I am with AGL in Sydney, and thought I would take a look... Anyone know of a better deal in Sydney ? (Without time restrictions etc)

I’ve had three goes at being an AGL customer and I’m afraid their customer service, in my experience, is just woeful. Adding GreenPower was apparently beyond them in their online signup, I had to be totally committed and call their call centre to make it happen. When you ‘renew’ your power plan with them, they don’t just repeat the previous settings, you need to sign up all over again. Including GreenPower (call to call centre... rinse & repeat). They also don’t have a carbon-offset gas product. Andy Vesey was a great CEO and committed to the renewable cause, but the organisation let him down.

I’ve moved to Origin. They don’t have a great environmental record according to GreenPeace and GetUp, but at least their customer systems work, signing up to 100% GreenPower is a easy-as, they have a carbon offset gas product, and they have a compelling solar plan with high FIT. When I ran the numbers of ten different rateplans over my historical 5-minute power usage and solar generation data from Tesla, Origin came out on top (against plans from AGL, PowerShop, RedEnergy and Diamond Energy).

 

[jamesgo]

Just looked up Origin and i'm guessing like most retailers in VIC:
From 1 July 2020, our Victorian standard retailer feed-in tariff will change from 12.0c/kWh to 10.2c/kWh

 

[Vostok]

Just looked up Origin and i'm guessing like most retailers in VIC:
From 1 July 2020, our Victorian standard retailer feed-in tariff will change from 12.0c/kWh to 10.2c/kWh

That is rather ordinary. Is that the highest in VIC? Highest FIT I found in NSW is 21c.

 

[jamesgo]

In Vic AGL had Solar savers which was 20c but that's end dated now and had a high daily connection fee. Their EV plan looks to be pretty good pricing, 19c per kw offpeak and a relatively low per day supply rate: https://www.agl.com.au/get-connected/electric-vehicles/electric-vehicle-plan

 

[paulp]

AGL have just announced that they are now offering carbon neutral options on all of their power and gas products in SA. No pricing details yet. Electricity this week and gas around the end of the year. I dont know if this extends beyond SA.
For vastly better customer service but the same rates I use their subsidiary PowerDirect.