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+100 Kwh battery

Discussion in 'Model S' started by NielsChr, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. NielsChr

    NielsChr Member

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    Just been looking at this video where they are discusing new panasonic 18650 cells witch will come out spring 2012 - they are talking about these cells like they are to be used by tesla.....aprox 1:28:00 (they seam not special entusiasm with tesla though)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmPPlz8-ycQ&feature=related

    Giving the numbers, the cells should potential have a capacity of 12,4 wh/cell and a weight of 46 g
    giving Model S 7800 cells with these numbers it should be posible to make a battery pack witch will hold almost 100 Kwh at a weight og 358 kg

    the "bad thing is that these cells quickly drop to 70% capacity leaving 67 kwh left - still more than teslas promised 56 Kwh asume Tesla is not pushing the cells and thereby protect the cell for long time use (e.g. only allow discarge to 10% and charge up to 70%)

    teoretical these cells will however as a start potential deliver 97 kwh before dropping down to aprox 70%, if these are the cells used in the 300 mile range version, will this mean that the 300 mil car will go mutch longer the first year (300-400 cycels) my math tells me it could go like 400 miles the first year...

    in 2013 there will be a new cell with 14,4 wh and a weight of 54g witch will give the pack a total capacity of 112 Kwh and a weight of 421 kg - this weight increase compared to the cars total weight is only a "minor" increase (60 kg) - there is no information about how capacity of this cell decrese as a function of cycles - if the cells e.g. can handle 80% charge after 2000 cycles (just a guess) its mutch better and we can expect to se 400 mil range in 2013, it could how ever also be worse but not suspeting a new battery to be worse than previous...
     
  2. Tommy

    Tommy Member

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    The new number being touted for the Model S is just over 7,000 cells. I am not a math wiz, but 800 fewer cells would have to seriously change your assumptions.
     
  3. WhiteKnight

    WhiteKnight _____ P85 #549 _____ Sig Red / Sig White

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    Sounds like an awesome strategy for Tesla to give people 400 miles range for the first year they own the car. All the Auto Journalist reviews should be glowing (rather than negative like Top Gear).
     
  4. SByer

    SByer '08 #383

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    Sounds like a bad strategy to me; people get far more upset about things that get taken away than things that are given. It would be a long-term customer complaint nightmare. And especially for cars, where you really want it to be like new for as long as possible, specs on paper be damned.
     
  5. WhiteKnight

    WhiteKnight _____ P85 #549 _____ Sig Red / Sig White

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    Yeah, Tesla would have to make it crystal clear to people that the 400 mile range was only temporary "until the battery settles in" after a year. Otherwise, you're right people would be upset. And on top of that they would extrapolate out and say "I lost 100 miles in range the first year, at this rate my battery will be dead in three more years." I still think if they can make it clear that (1) you enjoy a bonus 100 miles for 1 year only and (2) after that you'll get 300 miles range for a long time then it would help with good auto journalist reviews and good customer satisfaction surveys.
     
  6. Doug_G

    Doug_G Lead Moderator

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    That would be a really stupid thing to do. No one wants a car that "lasts" a year.
     
  7. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    The smarter thing to do might be to artificially limit the range to 300 miles in that first year. Might actually be better for the battery?
     
  8. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    All they have to do is say the car has a 300 mile range under the EPA cycle.
    Some drivers may receive more depending on driving style, conditions, topography, etc. but no more than 300 is assured.

    Undersell and overdeliver.
     
  9. tdelta1000

    tdelta1000 Active Member

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    vfx, I agree...It is better to under sell but over deliver.
     
  10. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    Pretty sure the Volt does that.
     
  11. NielsChr

    NielsChr Member

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    My basic info wasten't that good - the Tesla model s 300 mile battery is specifyed to be a 85 Kwh battery accourcing to
    Tesla Model S - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    not as my first post 56 kwh

    But I see different numbers on differnt sites, especially about how menny cells are being used - the wikipedia states 8000 cells for the large battery pack, witch will give a even larger capacity pack.

    so Im doing the math over again:
    Tesla model S is specifyed to having a 85 kwh
    asuming this is the cell they are talking about in the video, since tesla is not allowing the model S to deep cycling the battery they only get 85 kwh - witch mean that the battery management will not allow discarge below aprox 12% of total capacity (97 kwh)

    This is a good thing, witch will insure the car is still having power left for eg. lights and at the same time protect the battery life.

    With the next gen battery (2014), a 112 kwh pack discharged to same level of 13%. will get a effective capacity of 97 kwh - witch is 15% more capacity - all in all this might give a increase in total range of 12-13% due to 60 kg more weight in the nex gen pack - so this next gen battery will not make a battery revolution - 340 mil or 360 mil with special low air wheels (estiamates)



    About the 70% left - this will oly happen if you deep cycle the battery (witch I asume most people does not do every day, most people will run e.g. 100 miles a day and thereby they will be able to have full 300 mile range for a prelonged period, the 3-500 cycels are only valid if you empty the battery every time (Tesla seam to left min. 10-15% to prelong battery life regardless of car range)....what is shure, is that the battery slowly will decrease in capacity (witch I asume not is comming as a surprice to anyone here)
    AS i see the cycle curve, it is a very well designed battery cell, witch behaives almost as desired (flat curve for the first 2000 cycles)
     
  12. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    I just read this post about the leaf: Nissan Leaf

    When batteries increase in capacity, won't we see more manufacturers limiting batteries in software so that users can fast-charge more often to the 100% artificial limit? Which might be only 75% of the real capacity.

    This limiting could also be used to give a usdr an even better experience? In cold weather a battery might then charge itself a bit more to compensate for the heater?

    So we might get 100 to 125 kwh batteries in a few years, but only 80 to 100 kwh will be available to the user?
     
  13. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    This points out the need for "500 mile battery range" A car maker could choose to run the car that far OR have it run 300 miles but as you outline above maybe as much as 200 miles could be kept in reserve for all those other useful reasons.

    Time to start asking for a 700 mile battery pack... :)
     
  14. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    For pulling trailers 300 miles?
     
  15. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    So if Tesla made a 500 mile Model S for $100,000 ( plus options ) would you buy it?
     
  16. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    Considering the sigs around there as it is... heck yeah!
     
  17. richkae

    richkae VIN587

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    Base 300 miler is $70000, A well optioned car is $85000. Sig is $88000. So assume a well optioned 500 mile car is $115,000
     
  18. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    No. The 85kWh pack provides me all I can reasonably foresee needing. I would prefer to keep the extra $20k and, at worst, rent an ICE car for the very occasional need that the 85kWh pack can't serve.
     
  19. Raffy.Roma

    Raffy.Roma Active Member

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    Yes. Give me range :)
     
  20. jerry33

    jerry33 S85 - VIN:P05130 - 3/2/13

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    In an instant.
     

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