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110v vrs 220v charging

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by White Knight, Oct 16, 2020.

  1. White Knight

    White Knight Member

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    I have a model 3. As far as savings (electricity cost) is it better to use 220V vrs 110. I can use either. Using 220v will harm the battery in the long run vrs 110v?
     
  2. Xambler

    Xambler Member

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    Shouldn’t matter. Just faster charging with 220 of course. It’s not like the batteries actually see a different voltage.
     
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  3. KJD

    KJD Supporting Member

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    The Tesla battery management system (BMS) is very robust and well designed. Use any 220 volt outlet you have and don't worry about it.
     
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  4. RB88

    RB88 Member

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    220v charging is more efficient (less power wasted), so will work out cheaper.
     
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  5. ucmndd

    ucmndd Well-Known Member

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    Suggest using neither, as nominal voltage in North America has been 120v or 240v for nearly a century.
     
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  6. GtiMart

    GtiMart Member

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    You won't save directly as you pay electricity per kilowatt/hour. Using 120V instead of 240V only cuts the power in half. You pay half but charge half less... Where you save is by being more efficient, having less losses, and 240V will be better there, with as many amps as you can give it.
    At a maximum on 240V and 48 amps you give the battery around 11kW. Not enough to ever be harmful.
     
  7. DonaldBecker

    DonaldBecker Member

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    That's pedantic. And incorrect if you are being precise.

    House supply voltages in the U.S. have varied. Edison originally targeted 100VDC, with the distribution at 110VDC to offset losses. The first AC supplies were originally at 110VAC to match, but other systems used 115V, 117V, 120V and 125VAC. Because of this variation, 117V was typically used as the target utilization voltage for end devices, as it's the midpoint of 110V and 125V.

    My recollection was that the increase from 117VAC to 120VAC was led by NRECA in 1960s, but I can't find any references to that beyond multiple places that state the date was 1967 but no reference to the standard.
     
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  8. PACEMD

    PACEMD Member

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    Cool! Pedantic on rye............with a side of steroids..........
     
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  9. holmgang

    holmgang Active Member

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    Wouldn't he be correct in intent, but rather imprecise on the numbers.
     
  10. Webeevdrivers

    Webeevdrivers Active Member

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    Good morning. Two things.

    1. 240 is more efficient than 120. You can find detailed explanations of why on the web. Duh five to say it will save you money.

    2. The battery doesn’t see 120 or 240. The 120 or 240 volt power source feeds a large rectifying device...the cars charger. It charges your car and is controlled by the BMS (battery management systym).

    Bottom line. 240 is a better way to go from all standpoints.

    Not an expert.

    John.
     
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  11. smartypnz

    smartypnz Supporting Member

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    Harm the battery??? We charge these things at 100's of kilowatts at the Supercharger.... not sure there will be any harm from the 240 V or a little over 10 kilowatts.
    Anyway, in a Tesla, for the most part, the battery takes care of itself. Just don't make a habit of fully charging it and having it sit that way for extended periods.
    Your 240 hookup would be more efficient than the 120.
     
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  12. TLLMRRJ

    TLLMRRJ Active Member

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    I think you guys are missing the point of the OP's question.

    It's well known that supercharging puts a strain on the battery due to the speed of charging. Taking that logic further, the slower you charge, the less strain it should be on the battery. Which means you shouldn't charge any faster than you need to charge.
     
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  13. ralph142

    ralph142 Member

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    perhaps, but there’s not much evidence that I’ve ever found suggesting a significant difference between 120 and 240 v charging. And since it goes through the rectifier, being ac, it would be that bit of circuit ‘wearing out’ rather than the batteries themselves ?
     
  14. TLLMRRJ

    TLLMRRJ Active Member

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    You're getting voltage and current confused. Just because the charging system creates the same voltage for the batteries during charging doesn't mean the batteries are getting the same level of current. It's the current that changes the speed of the charging. The speed of charging has proven to change the life of the batteries. It's not clear how much better the life would be on a much slower charge of 110 vs 220. One charges at 30 miles an hour, and the other at 4-5 miles an hour. 6 to 7 times the speed is clearly not an insignificant difference.
     
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  15. GtiMart

    GtiMart Member

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    You're right, there is a difference from 1.5kW to the max of 11.5kW you can charge on AC. The thing is, it is much much lower than the supercharger rates of 100kW - 250kW that our cars can take. The belief is that at 11kW you're already slow enough to not hurt the batteries. And you get efficient charging. It's the sweet spot but that's just my opinion.
    You can definitely charge at 1.5kW and waste more energy, thus paying more, if you believe it's better for your car. For most people, 11.5kW (240V * 48A) is still gentle on the battery.
     
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  16. TLLMRRJ

    TLLMRRJ Active Member

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    Would be nice to know for sure. People seem fixated that if the battery lasts 100k miles, you’re good. There’s a lot of old cars out there with 300k miles, and for them, the little difference of 110v charging may add up to a lot of difference in battery like over 300k miles.
     
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  17. GtiMart

    GtiMart Member

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    I don't believe the battery is only good for 100000 miles. I think some of that fear comes from previous models like the Leaf. Totally different technology. People panic way too much about range and their battery here. I'm saying that and I'm the picky type that wants to optimize everything in general...
    I say enjoy the car and charge on whatever you have available. The only exception is don't supercharge except when travelling and you'll be good.
     
  18. ucmndd

    ucmndd Well-Known Member

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    It doesn’t matter. For sure.

    Most lithium batteries can comfortably charge at about 1kw per every kWh of capacity until they get close to full. You’ll see this referred to as a “C” rating - for an easy example, a 100kwh battery charging at 100kw is charging at 1C. Model 3 batteries can now briefly charge as high as 3.33C on 250kw v3 superchargers.

    AC charging a Tesla is so far below the maximum C rating as to have negligible to completely immeasurable effect on battery life.

    A 75kwh model 3 battery charging at 120v/12a is charging at 0.02 C.

    A 75kwh model 3 battery charging at 240v/48a is charging at 0.15 C.

    There is nothing to discuss here.
     
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  19. byeLT4

    byeLT4 Member

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    ^100%

    And as others have said, 240 is more efficient, so it will save you a bit in the long run!
     
  20. The_Observer

    The_Observer Member

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    Another vote for 220/240v, more efficient and faster. Our cars have a really big battery with a good BMS, this is not your cell phone that might be harmed from fast charging. At 0.15C charging, it's not even making a dent.
     

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