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$12K for FSD is insane

A

AndreP

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Even just paying for it once is one thing, there are people on here who have said they've paid for it many times over because they're churning through Teslas and buy it on each one. I can't remember his username, but there's one guy who said he had paid something crazy like $60k+ between FSD/AP over the years.

Can only assume these are shareholders who figure they're getting value back that way, because I can't imagine a sensible reason for doing that otherwise regardless of how much cash you have. And I haven't met many people who have a lot of money but spend it frivolously.
 
Neither are your dishonest arguments :)

billions of miles get driven on AP.

Who's using it exactly if it's "unusable"?

MEANWHILE, BACK IN REALITY....

Consumer reports rated 18 different L2 driver assist systems.

Including from Cadillac, Ford, Mercedes, Audi, Subaru, BMW, Porsche, Volvo, Lexus, Nissan, Mazda, and more.... They even included 3rd party system Comma AI.

Guess who ranked higher than anyone else for capability and performance?

Tesla. The only brand to score a 9 out of 10.

(a couple others managed an 8... Subaru and BMW a 7... most of the rest score in the 3-5 out of 10 range).

Where CR ended up dinging Tesla was essentially 2 things:


Tesla lets you activate the system in places you shouldn't (exactly as discussed earlier in the thread regarding a road where you live!) and Tesla wasn't monitoring the driver to insure he was paying attention (ie not detecting bad drivers rather than an issue with the system itself....and something Tesla has since fixed with an OTA update to use the interior camera for this).

But in actual use it's the best thing on the market.






If the taxi driver can operate 24/7 (minus refueling the vehicle time) and not take any salary at all 100k/yr should be pretty easy right now.

Otherwise you're gonna need to wait for robotaxis.
Amazing to me how much effort you put into defending perceived quality. I think you just want people to agree with your opinion.

Autopilot is not useable.
 
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Knightshade

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Jul 31, 2017
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Amazing to me how much effort you put into defending perceived quality.

Also, actual quality.

As I mentioned when CR compared like 15 different systems they rated Teslas #1 for actual performance and capability.

Autopilot is not useable.


And yet everyone else is using it just fine. Over billions of miles thusfar.

Weird how actual facts, and your opinions, keep disagreeing with each other.
 
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I was going to initially buy a Plaid Plus without FSD so had already set the $$$$ aside. When they cancelled the Plus, I just put that toward the FSD on the Plaid. I have the same attitude as some of the other folks......eventually, hopefully in my lifetime, they'll get it working well enough to let the non-beta folks to use it. If/when they do, the price will go up even more, or it will all be subscription like some have said. They have got to be getting a wealth of data from the beta testers and, along with the normal, rapid gains in technology, my guess it another year or two and it'll be good enough for us lousy drivers. In the mean time I am satisfied with the way everything works right now.
 

raptor5244

Active Member
May 10, 2019
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Even just paying for it once is one thing, there are people on here who have said they've paid for it many times over because they're churning through Teslas and buy it on each one. I can't remember his username, but there's one guy who said he had paid something crazy like $60k+ between FSD/AP over the years.

Can only assume these are shareholders who figure they're getting value back that way, because I can't imagine a sensible reason for doing that otherwise regardless of how much cash you have. And I haven't met many people who have a lot of money but spend it frivolously.
Exactly, my issue is that Elon and company keep pitching and pricing FSD like it is a finished or close to finished product. If you are a new Tesla customer and not tech savvy you more than likely have no idea what you are buying or signing up for. If you listen to Elon and the hype your car should have been a Robo-taxi by now and the next model won't come with a steering wheel or pedals. Tesla makes a fantastic EV, there is no need to create negative customer sentiment from overpromising and underdelivering when it comes to FSD.
 

raptor5244

Active Member
May 10, 2019
1,585
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Florida
I was going to initially buy a Plaid Plus without FSD so had already set the $$$$ aside. When they cancelled the Plus, I just put that toward the FSD on the Plaid. I have the same attitude as some of the other folks......eventually, hopefully in my lifetime, they'll get it working well enough to let the non-beta folks to use it. If/when they do, the price will go up even more, or it will all be subscription like some have said. They have got to be getting a wealth of data from the beta testers and, along with the normal, rapid gains in technology, my guess it another year or two and it'll be good enough for us lousy drivers. In the mean time I am satisfied with the way everything works right now.
Maybe they are still testing out the pricing in the market. On $100k+ vehicles, $12k more is not a big deal, but on $45-$50k vehicles it is.
 
Also, actual quality.

As I mentioned when CR compared like 15 different systems they rated Teslas #1 for actual performance and capability.




And yet everyone else is using it just fine. Over billions of miles thusfar.

Weird how actual facts, and your opinions, keep disagreeing with each other.
Except it isn't and they don't.

Must be nice to devote so much time to something devoid of social relevance.
 

Knightshade

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Jul 31, 2017
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Except it isn't and they don't.

uh... wut?

Here's the CAPABILITES AND PERFORMANCE score of the 15+ L2 systems CR tested.

The most capable and best performing system was Teslas autopilot.

ap_cr.png



Which is weird since you insist the system isn't even usable!

I mean, how bad are the systems from Ford, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Porsche, etc if they all score lower, often much lower?


Your argument is 2000% nonsense dude.


Must be nice to devote so much time to something devoid of social relevance.


You're the one devoting your time to posting factually untrue things on the same topic in reply to factual posts.

So it's weird you'd bring "wasting time" up.
 

2101Guy

Breaker of Ignore Buttons
Jan 6, 2020
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uh... wut?

Here's the CAPABILITES AND PERFORMANCE score of the 15+ L2 systems CR tested.

The most capable and best performing system was Teslas autopilot.

View attachment 759453


Which is weird since you insist the system isn't even usable!

I mean, how bad are the systems from Ford, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Porsche, etc if they all score lower, often much lower?


Your argument is 2000% nonsense dude.





You're the one devoting your time to posting factually untrue things on the same topic in reply to factual posts.

So it's weird you'd bring "wasting time" up.
More helpful to place the above graph in context with the rest of the article:

Cadillac Super Cruise has retained its title as the best driver assistance system on the market
Tesla's Autopilot came in second place—a "
distant second" according to Consumer Reports.
GM took a safety-first approach in designing Super Cruise


$12k to get a system that is distant second from one that is $2500
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
17,059
35,269
NC
More helpful to place the above graph in context with the rest of the article:

Cadillac Super Cruise has retained its title as the best driver assistance system on the market
Tesla's Autopilot came in second place—a "
distant second" according to Consumer Reports.
GM took a safety-first approach in designing Super Cruise


$12k to get a system that is distant second from one that is $2500


That's.... dishonest on many levels.

For one- Teslas basic AP is free

FSD is 12k, but it does a ton more things Supercruise does not.


For another- Supercuise is not even being sold today.

Source:




For another- it's a lot more than $2500 back when it WAS sold.

It required selecting more expensive trims of the vehicle to even be able to "add" the $2500 option- meaning REAL cost if you only care about supercruise was $15,000-$25,000 depending on the vehicle.

It ALSO then had a monthly subscription price ON TOP of that, but only after you had it 3 years.

Source:





And you didn't even have the OPTION to have it do things like lane changes or following your route if you wanted to pay for that.


The only reason it scored higher overall was padding the score for things like "driver engagement" because it used an interior camera to monitor the driver.

it was a less capable system (the thing actually being debated) than Teslas.... but CR liked it more otherwise because they felt it did a better job noticing if the HUMAN was distracted.


Tesla has of course since turned on driver monitoring via the interior cam via OTA update too.
 
uh... wut?

Here's the CAPABILITES AND PERFORMANCE score of the 15+ L2 systems CR tested.

The most capable and best performing system was Teslas autopilot.

View attachment 759453


Which is weird since you insist the system isn't even usable!

I mean, how bad are the systems from Ford, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Porsche, etc if they all score lower, often much lower?


Your argument is 2000% nonsense dude.





You're the one devoting your time to posting factually untrue things on the same topic in reply to factual posts.

So it's weird you'd bring "wasting time" up.
I'm really only interested in cruise control, which doesn't work well.
 
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MorrisonHiker

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Even just paying for it once is one thing, there are people on here who have said they've paid for it many times over because they're churning through Teslas and buy it on each one. I can't remember his username, but there's one guy who said he had paid something crazy like $60k+ between FSD/AP over the years.

That was me. Going forward, we'll probably only subscribe, if we subscribe.

Car #YearModelAutopilotFSD
12016Model S 90D$3,000
22016Model S 90D$5,000
32017Model S 100D$5,000$3,000
42017Model S 75D$3,000
52018Model 3 LR
62018Model 3 LR AWD$5,000$2,000
72018Model 3 Performance$5,000$3,000
82019Model X 100D$5,000$3,000
92019Model 3 SR+$3,000
102019Model 3 LR AWD$8,000
112020Model Y Performance$8,000
122020Model Y Performance$7,000
132021Model S Plaid$800
142022Model S
$34,000$34,800
 
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raptor5244

Active Member
May 10, 2019
1,585
1,280
Florida
That was me. Going forward, we'll probably only subscribe, if we subscribe.

Car #YearModelAutopilotFSD
12016Model S 90D$3,000
22016Model S 90D$5,000
32017Model S 100D$5,000$3,000
42017Model S 75D$3,000
52018Model 3 LR
62018Model 3 LR AWD$5,000$2,000
72018Model 3 Performance$5,000$3,000
82019Model X 100D$5,000$3,000
92019Model 3 SR+$3,000
102019Model 3 LR AWD$8,000
112020Model Y Performance$8,000
122020Model Y Performance$7,000
132021Model S Plaid$800
142022Model S
$34,000$34,800
Damn, you are Tesla's favorite customer. I think your contribution alone paid for NoA.

You should be awarded a lifetime FSD membership after this. ;)
 
Fortunately, I usually keep my vehicles almost forever if I like them, so I figure I can wait it out and, hopefully, reach some sort of break even point eventually. Longest I've kept one is almost 29 years. Others....18 years in July and another 13 years in October. I think I'll probably be buried in the Tesla though unless the "Save the Earth" folks have issues with the batteries polluting the ground.
 
and


Model 3 owners manual said:
Warning
Traffic-Aware Cruise Control may occasionally cause Model 3 to brake when not required or when you are not expecting it. This can be caused by closely following a vehicle ahead, detecting vehicles or objects in adjacent lanes (especially on curves)

#RTFM
Translation: TACC sucks. I mean seriously, you're right. It's in the manual. It says it might brake when it shouldn't, and it says it might not brake when it should. According to this page, Tesla released TACC in 2014, and 8 years later, it's still in beta.

RTFM? It basically says don't trust it, which is pretty much what many of us are saying.

Well that's ok, just keep my speed constant and I'll decide when to brake. Oh wait, the software won't do that -- I guess it doesn't trust me either.
 
Here's the CAPABILITES AND PERFORMANCE score of the 15+ L2 systems CR tested.

The most capable and best performing system was Teslas autopilot.
Since we're citing CR, here are some quotes from an interesting article:

May 2019​

After Tesla releases an update to Navigate on Autopilot, a feature designed to automate some lane changing functions, CR tests the feature. We found that it cut off other cars without leaving enough space, failed to pass in the correct lane, and at times struggled to merge into traffic.

October 2019​

Consumer Reports tests Tesla’s Smart Summon feature, which the automaker claims can “summon” a Tesla vehicle to drive itself across a parking lot without any occupants inside the vehicle. We find that it has difficulty negotiating a parking lot, crosses lane lines, and wanders erratically “like a drunken or distracted driver.”

Fall 2020​

Consumer Reports conducts a series of evaluations of Tesla’s Full Self-Driving Capability features. We find that they work inconsistently. For example, Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control is designed to come to a complete stop at all stoplights, even when they are green, unless the driver overrides the system. In addition to the unusual behavior of stopping at green lights, our Tesla also drove through stop signs, slammed on the brakes for yield signs when the merge was clear, and stopped at every exit while going around a traffic circle.
There's actually a lot of interesting info on that page, it's worth a read.
 

raptor5244

Active Member
May 10, 2019
1,585
1,280
Florida
uh... wut?

Here's the CAPABILITES AND PERFORMANCE score of the 15+ L2 systems CR tested.

The most capable and best performing system was Teslas autopilot.

View attachment 759453


Which is weird since you insist the system isn't even usable!

I mean, how bad are the systems from Ford, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Porsche, etc if they all score lower, often much lower?

The problem with this list is that it is basically ranking the best of the worst. The tech is still maturing so I expect relatively low scores. My gripe is only Tesla advertises full self driving and charges $12k for a product that doesn’t do so and probably never will during your time of ownership of the vehicle.

The lack of FSD transferability between Tesla vehicles is a real swift kick to the tenders. They could at least implement something like a $1500 transfer fee so you migrate your existing FSD purchase to a new Tesla vehicle rather than having to pay over and over to be a beta tester.
 
I wonder if FSD should be priced differently based on model category and price?

The base price of a Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive is $45k, so the $12k FSD option represents an increase of 27%,
while the base price of a Model S Plaid is $130k, so the $12k FSD option represents an increase of less than 10%.

Since Tesla sells 10 x more Model 3/Y than Model S/X, lowering the Model 3/Y FSD option price
will certainly makes it more popular, thus Tesla could even get more $$ back from the FSD option.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
17,059
35,269
NC
Since we're citing CR, here are some quotes

CR somewhat famously tests the very first version then ignores all future updates.

For example as you cite they tested features in 2019 and apparently never bothered to update their descriptions of them even though they, especially NoA, have been through dozens of updates and improvements since.

The last one is especially funny though, they write " We find that they work inconsistently. For example, Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control is designed to come to a complete stop at all stoplights"

So...it's inconsistent in that it does the same thing for every light? That's just bad writing.

Which is the opposite of inconsistent.... and also not quite how the system has worked for some time since it'll now go through green lights either with the beta or in wide release with a follow car.

They've since mentioned they're luddite old people who have trouble keeping up with changes though- specifically saying

CR said:
Covering Tesla's software and technology is increasingly tricky. The brand's cars receive regular updates, so some cars may have updates that others don't yet have.

If your mag is incapable of keeping up with changes to a product, maybe don't try and cover the product?



CR somewhat famously has an anti-tesla bias though-like where they wrote a story about how "easy" is it to operate AP without someone in the drivers seat that involved multiple ridiculous steps nobody could ever do by accident.... or where they complained for years Tesla sucks because they don't use a camera for driver monitoring- so Tesla did an OTA update to enable exactly what CR wanted, and CRs response was "OMG! A CAMERA?? PRIVACY CONCERNS!!!"..... mind you it had praised camera use by everyone NOT named Tesla....


So the fact they still were forced to admit Tesla was #1 for actual performance and capabilities is pretty signficant.



The problem with this list is that it is basically ranking the best of the worst.

I mean... ok I guess?

Pretty glass half empty perspective, but at least unlike a few folks here you accept the rankings :)


. My gripe is only Tesla advertises full self driving and charges $12k for a product that doesn’t do so

But again, for nearly 3 years now the product they "call" that is explicitly described to you during your purchase as only promising ONE additional, undelivered, thing... which is L2 city street driving.

Something that exists but is in narrow beta testing and (obviously) not finished yet.

It doesn't promise you some magical L5 system that is imaginary.


You're getting hung up on the name.

But Happy Meals don't necessarily make everyone happy. Diaper Genies don't grant wishes.

Radio flyers neither receive radio nor fly.



The lack of FSD transferability between Tesla vehicles is a real swift kick to the tenders.

Can you cite a bunch of other car options that are "transferable" to new cars?

I can't think of... well... any....

That includes all the other L2 driving systems other car makers charge for. They stay with the car.

Tesla has already offered folks an option who don't think they'll get 12k of value out of it. A $199/mo subscription you can turn on/off month to month.



Translation: TACC sucks. I mean seriously, you're right. It's in the manual

It's also in the manual for every other car brand with a similar feature

It's inherent to the technology though degree varies from one version to another- and as pointed out, with half a dozen sources, other brands are worse.

So the premise some have in here it's a "tesla" problem remains factually nonsensical.
 
It's also in the manual for every other car brand with a similar feature

It's inherent to the technology though degree varies from one version to another- and as pointed out, with half a dozen sources, other brands are worse.

So the premise some have in here it's a "tesla" problem remains factually nonsensical.
As far as TACC goes, difference is every other car lets you use normal cruise control if you don’t want to deal with the phantom breaking etc. Tesla doesn’t.
 

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