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$12K for FSD is insane

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@ucmndd said:
People that anthropomorphize their cars creep me the fugg out.

I'm sorry to add to your discomfort. I can't speak for others, but in my my case my wife offers many features that Nicki The Tesla lacks.

Yet I think it fair to explain a couple of things. First, I find the wokey Gender twisting of language in relation to humans to be symptomatic of profound cultural and neurological damage. The car, however, has both male and female attributes in my eyes, so I find it very amusing. There's also a reference to Professor Tesla, and a Toni Basil song.

Personification of objects and animals has some operational value. Hey, Google, Hello Amazon, Whoa Siri. With regard to semi-intelligent entities there's something in how I've "worked" with them over the past decades. For a coder-designer, personification has some use. I remember what Pokey The Chicken or Hawkeye the Drone is capable of better than if I called 'em "Coq Au Vin" or "Model 86743-D". My dog and car even come when summoned, at times. We cool.

What I've found is that the horse analogy works best. And horses have names. There's a division of labor. A lot like the way our Central Nervous System sets targets and top level parameters, while our Autonomous Nervous System handles the details: the heart rate, blood pressure, GI tract motility, and in this case the steering, slowing, trotting forward along the path. When told what to do, and kept under control, Nicki the Tesla does well, better and better. I don't whip horses or kick dogs, or smash automatons. They're taught to help, and they're learning.

It adds greatly to my pleasure to see the car's intelligence improve, and its behavior evolve: more audacious at times, overly hesitant at others. It's a very tough AI task; it's truly never been done before. Worth every penny for me. And Nicki's doin' good. Eyes in the front, back and sides, more sensors and logic than I can muster. There's a lot of give-and-take, and bonding, in how we work together. Sorry it "creeps you the fugg out" that I consider it a "being".
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Finally pulled the plug on FSD purchase after 6 months. Elon tweet about price increase pushed me. I've liked the features available and how it worked 3 months ago when I had a one month subscription. Stopping at signals was very nice. Stop sign creeping not so much. Auto park worked at times but I can live without it. Summon is mostly disgraceful. Auto lane change, I agree with most people should be included in autopilot but I guess number of people buying FSD would be very tiny if that were the case.
 
Finally pulled the plug on FSD purchase after 6 months. Elon tweet about price increase pushed me. I've liked the features available and how it worked 3 months ago when I had a one month subscription. Stopping at signals was very nice. Stop sign creeping not so much. Auto park worked at times but I can live without it. Summon is mostly disgraceful. Auto lane change, I agree with most people should be included in autopilot but I guess number of people buying FSD would be very tiny if that were the case.
Ya. Just rent it. You’d need like 5yrs of continuous rental for it make a difference. And then if you decide to upgrade your back in the same boat anyway.
 
Ya. Just rent it. You’d need like 5yrs of continuous rental for it make a difference. And then if you decide to upgrade your back in the same boat anyway.
I understand the sentiment, and this logic is repeated quite often, but it isn’t really the case, since the subscription price will continue to rise (while continuing to pay for it), but the one time cost doesn’t (when paid).
 
I understand the sentiment, and this logic is repeated quite often, but it isn’t really the case, since the subscription price will continue to rise (while continuing to pay for it), but the one time cost doesn’t (when paid).

The fact that we don't have all the information means that we're just placing bets.

The pending price increase to $12K is pure manipulation as its being done BEFORE the general release of FSD Beta. But, the price of the subscription won't change until the General release. Elon also didn't mention how much the subscription would increase.

It's also not just a bet, but it locks you in.

You gotta keep the car to make sure the bet pays off. :p
 
I understand the sentiment, and this logic is repeated quite often, but it isn’t really the case, since the subscription price will continue to rise (while continuing to pay for it), but the one time cost doesn’t (when paid).
Fair point.

You can also cancel the subscription if/when the feature is not usable. Buying it, is a risk that they will ever make it (actually) usable. And if they do, when? Will I have saved 2 years of rent? Right now (for me) it doesn’t ‘work’ and I think it will be >2 years before I find it good/usable. But that’s just my opinion.

Also what will the state of art be when they make it work? Hw4, hw5? I also believe v2 products are generally more refined then v1 products. I’m sure I’ll buy a new car when v2 fsd arrives.

If Telsa allowed the current investors in their project to carry it forward to new cars, I would easily pay for it. I want to be a part of the journey, but the progress is going to cover the lifetime of multiple cars for me.

I’m also excited about the rental option because it will provide Tesla better feedback as to the value of the feature. I suspect they would have gotten a lot less then 10k from me and probably many others. I think the posts that say ‘someday it will be rental only’ are amusing. I suspect they’d have a fraction of the people paying anything they happen to have now.

I’m willing to pay a fair price for the feature when it arrives and reasonably works. Be that a rental fee or as part of a new car. Given the multiple long-running issues with no, or feeble, progress I even think there’s a risk they won’t deliver something of quality.
 
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I understand the sentiment, and this logic is repeated quite often, but it isn’t really the case, since the subscription price will continue to rise (while continuing to pay for it), but the one time cost doesn’t (when paid).

That is making a big assumption which I don't believe. That the price for FSD will continue to increase in a linear fashion. I don't buy it. I believe that Tesla is testing their buyers to see how high they can go. They won't be able to continue the price increase as more and more potential buyers reject it and revenue drops. There is a big change coming as competitors arrive and offer similar features for less. And not just in the EV space. They are also arriving in the ICE space. I only hope that Elon is savvy enough to evaluate and pay attention to that competition and their offerings. I am pretty sure that he is.
 
That is making a big assumption which I don't believe. That the price for FSD will continue to increase in a linear fashion. I don't buy it. I believe that Tesla is testing their buyers to see how high they can go. They won't be able to continue the price increase as more and more potential buyers reject it and revenue drops.


The take rate is already quite low for FSD in general...and barely above 0 outside the US.... between that and the fact Tesla can't legally recognize a portion of the $ paid for it until they deliver the last features promised, there's no math where raising the price makes any sense at all as a revenue grab.

The difference in revenue of an extra 2k, some of which they can't even recognize, at a tiny take rate anyway, is basically nothing to a company that's expected to post 16 billion in revenue for just the past quarter.


There is a big change coming as competitors arrive and offer similar features for less. And not just in the EV space. They are also arriving in the ICE space.

Where?

GM actually stopped offering their system-- which only worked on specific highways anyway and cost more than FSD did in the long run (since it generally required buying the more expensive trim of the vehicle plus had a monthly cost after a few years).... They blame the "chip shortage" and say it'll be back someday... though not available to retrofit to any current cars built without...

Fords system is so embarrassingly bad (public demos showed it turning itself off on highways if the road curved at all, let alone local roads) they've delayed the rollout multiple times now...

Where's the 'similar features for less'? Most aren't even as good as basic autopilot which comes free, let alone the stuff FSD is looking to do.
 
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Fair point.

You can also cancel the subscription if/when the feature is not usable. Buying it, is a risk that they will ever make it (actually) usable. And if they do, when? Will I have saved 2 years of rent? Right now (for me) it doesn’t ‘work’ and I think it will be >2 years before I find it good/usable. But that’s just my opinion.

Also what will the state of art be when they make it work? Hw4, hw5? I also believe v2 products are generally more refined then v1 products. I’m sure I’ll buy a new car when v2 fsd arrives.

If Telsa allowed the current investors in their project to carry it forward to new cars, I would easily pay for it. I want to be a part of the journey, but the progress is going to cover the lifetime of multiple cars for me.

I’m also excited about the rental option because it will provide Tesla better feedback as to the value of the feature. I suspect they would have gotten a lot less then 10k from me and probably many others. I think the posts that say ‘someday it will be rental only’ are amusing. I suspect they’d have a fraction of the people paying anything they happen to have now.

I’m willing to pay a fair price for the feature when it arrives and reasonably works. Be that a rental fee or as part of a new car. Given the multiple long-running issues with no, or feeble, progress I even think there’s a risk they won’t deliver something of quality.
I just don’t understand why Tesla has been able to sell its FSD over the past number of years. Why have people been paying for something that was, and remains, some distance away from being a useful and reliable product? What did they get for their money?

Let Tesla develop it more, release a proper product, and then people, can decide whether it is worth the money to buy it. Meanwhille, if Tesla wants to enroll people as beta testers, that’s fine, but that should be under other, separate, arrangements.
 
I understand the sentiment, and this logic is repeated quite often, but it isn’t really the case, since the subscription price will continue to rise (while continuing to pay for it), but the one time cost doesn’t (when paid).
This assumes you are going to keep the car for a long time since you can't transfer FSD to another vehicle, which makes the FSD subscription a better option for most. You can also cancel as needed. For example, what if you change jobs and work from home most of time and barely use the car yet alone FSD features? Furthermore, most enthusiasts chasing after the autonomous driving are typically looking to upgrade to the newer tech when it becomes available.

A Tesla EV lifecycle seems like it will share a lot of similarities with an iPhone lifecycle. New model comes out with bigger and better battery, improved/more cameras, faster processors, bigger display, better speakers and capable of supporting the latest UI. Am I referring to a phone or a car?🤔
 
I really don't need FSD. I would love to get the ability for auto lane change, that's the biggest draw for me but not at $10k or even $12k.

I cannot wait until other manufacturers who came up with something better and offer it for much below what Tesla is doing.

Elon's logic on how FSD is so valuable is simply flawed at the point in time. Demanding more money is really showing his arrogance. It would be one thing if he simply gives FSD to anyone who pays, but you have to rely on his SUPER AWFUL algorithm to determine your safety score before you get it.

And people, please do NOT sign up for Tesla's insurance tracking because if it's the same extremely stupid algorithm, you should expect big brother to charge you with no recourse.
 
Wow, are any of the naysayers actually USING It? I use all of it, I mean NOA to FSD Beta. I never use TACC or base autopilot, no idea how that works. I speak my destination and it just does it. I'm not crazy about the UI changes at all, but hey.

BTW, does anyone know how to display the driver Profile again?

Tonight driving 20 miles from home to to a shopping center and Barbecue Place, and back, I had one override where the car got into a Freeway entrance only lane, then changed its mind and was awkwardly working into the pretty packed right lane. Better to handle that in manual, though my wife kept saying "just let figure it out". It was too tight for comfort I thought, I knew what to expect: it was going to bully and stress the people in the right lane, Street Cred style. But everything else was flawless.

I suspect that Elon and the high level staff have gotten used to using it well, and then it even makes perfect sense at $12k. Honestly it does for me. Other than having to buy it again if we trash the car. That's not cool. But I guess the people who complain are either not really using it, or wanting "sleep in the back", which is unsafe and unrealistic, or maybe driving in areas with terrible maps, or just don't know when/how to override. It's getting so good around here now with 10.8.1, I'm really just driving with my mouth open, no joke, amazed. And that is worth something too.
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This assumes you are going to keep the car for a long time since you can't transfer FSD to another vehicle, which makes the FSD subscription a better option for most. You can also cancel as needed. For example, what if you change jobs and work from home most of time and barely use the car yet alone FSD features? Furthermore, most enthusiasts chasing after the autonomous driving are typically looking to upgrade to the newer tech when it becomes available.

A Tesla EV lifecycle seems like it will share a lot of similarities with an iPhone lifecycle. New model comes out with bigger and better battery, improved/more cameras, faster processors, bigger display, better speakers and capable of supporting the latest UI. Am I referring to a phone or a car?🤔
I wasn’t arguing for the purchase or subscription model. I was saying that common statement of “you’d have to subscribe for x years to equal the purchase price” isn’t a clear formula since we don’t know the increase amounts. The argument for whether to purchase or subscribe is moot because there are those for both. There are two purchase models because they each fit a different customer.

As I’ve posted before, we, for example, are of the “planning to drive the car into the ground“ crowd. We paid upfront 4 years ago (before AP was free/included, NoA, HW3, etc.) and have enjoyed the benefits of that purchase since. We will be buying another Model 3 (unless CT is available by then) and plan to purchase FSD Capability again. We didn’t purchase it back then for what it could do only then, and we didn’t purchase it just for the promises of “someday it’ll drive you while you ride in the backseat sleeping”. We have always stated that we doubt/question the optimistic timeline, but are open to being proved wrong by Elon as we continue to enjoy improvements/additions along the way. We purchased it for the improvements and improvements we’ve received. We also recognize not everyone thinks like us, so subscription model makes more sense for them. We would love for FSD Capability purchase to be transferable to another Tesla purchase, but we aren’t banking on that.

As I’ve also written before, these aren’t akin to the iPhone purchase cycle for many customers (us included). We are coming up to 4 years since purchase, and not missing much in the hardware upgrades. We are missing boom box, megaphone, slightly higher range, dual motors, faster 0-60, heat pump, not sure if anything else (of importance to us)? But for our region/climate and use, our LR batt with RWD single motor combo has been great and no significant FOMO yet. Besides, unlike current cars, we did get HomeLink, free/included premium connectivity, NEMA 14-50 outlet adapter, frunk liner and shopping bag hooks (which we actually use haha). Even if getting a performance Model 3 soon (because we are moving, old ICE car is dying, we can finally afford another, and I have wanted a track car again since they started selling P3D after we bought our LR RWD), we don’t plan to sell this one. We love it!
 
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how to display the driver Profile again
The holiday update moved it to the car menu button. It’s at the top when you push the car button (bottom left of dock).

And I mostly agree with your comments, except for whatever reason 10.8.1 has been a regression for us. Random turn signals in the wrong direction, trouble picking a lane and therefore swerving back and forth somewhat wildly, etc. 10.8 for us was a huge/amazing improvement for us. I was able to use FSD beta to the “more-relaxing-drive“ level that production AP provided before beta-life (not quite, but almost).
 
I just don’t understand why Tesla has been able to sell its FSD over the past number of years. Why have people been paying for something that was, and remains, some distance away from being a useful and reliable product? What did they get for their money?

Since March 2019 buying FSD has included a specific list of features.

Navigate on Autopilot
Auto Lane Change
Autopark
Summon
Full Self-Driving Computer
Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control


ALL of which, except city streets, have been a delivered product for almost 2 years now (longer for the first 5 of the 6).

City streets is the only one still not widely delivered (though available to the beta testers).



So the idea folks seem to often have that they're selling something that doesn't exist or is just the not-ready-for-public-release beta, simply is not so. They're selling a package, 1/7th of which remains in limited beta and 6/7th of which has been released publicly for quite a while.


If you don't think the existing features are worth the price- don't pay it. Tesla has plenty more than enough existing buyers for beta testing (and still gathers tons of data from non-FSD owners too via shadow mode campaigns)
 
Since March 2019 buying FSD has included a specific list of features.

Navigate on Autopilot
Auto Lane Change
Autopark
Summon
Full Self-Driving Computer
Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control


ALL of which, except city streets, have been a delivered product for almost 2 years now (longer for the first 5 of the 6).

City streets is the only one still not widely delivered (though available to the beta testers).



So the idea folks seem to often have that they're selling something that doesn't exist or is just the not-ready-for-public-release beta, simply is not so. They're selling a package, 1/7th of which remains in limited beta and 6/7th of which has been released publicly for quite a while.


If you don't think the existing features are worth the price- don't pay it. Tesla has plenty more than enough existing buyers for beta testing (and still gathers tons of data from non-FSD owners too via shadow mode campaigns)
Based on the various assessments I have seen by users on the released features, including in this thread, the features are not ready for prime time. That assessment is not unanimous, but it does appear to be the overall theme.
 
Based on the various assessments I have seen by users on the released features, including in this thread, the features are not ready for prime time. That assessment is not unanimous, but it does appear to be the overall theme.


You're surprised a thread about how overpriced a thing is is dominated by folks who think it's overpriced? :)

Personally I used NoA on like 90%+ of all my driving and it's great. YMMV.

Auto lane change everyone seems to agree is fantastic, and it is.

Basic summon I've never had a reason to use. For folks with tight garages they swear by it- unsure how much use it has outside that.

Enhanced summon the range is too short, but it has worked fine when I've been able to use it- I've used it for example to have my car pull from its parking spot to an overhang near the front door of my work so I can get in without being rained on.... that's very nice. The downside is it only works if I got a close enough parking spot for the limited range of the feature.

Autopark- has always been fine for parallel parking... for perp it kinda sucked until a few months ago when they finally updated it to use vision... it's still a little slow, but WAY better about seeing spots, and noticeably quicker than it used to be to park in them- and especially nice is you can now park in spots WITHOUT other cars on either side... so I've gone from never using for perp spots (because I don't like parking between other cars and it was poor at recognizing spots anyway) to using it occasionally.

The driving computer- well yeah I got a free computer upgrade. And expect another one when HW4 is out and Tesla admits it'll need that for FSD.



And I mean, especially with the subscription available now, anyone can find out for themselves for $199 and then make their own decisions.
 
Ya. Just rent it. You’d need like 5yrs of continuous rental for it make a difference. And then if you decide to upgrade your back in the same boat anyway.
Buy stock. Rent FSD Early adopters did a huge favor to Tesla in allowing them to begin serious development for a product that will be awesome. It's just going to take a long time to get there it seems to me. So, take 12000 and buy 10 shares of tesa or whatever it is today. Then in 3-9 years when it really works rent FSD if you need it. Keep the stock.

Win
 
I'm on the stock as well. But I use and love what the package, including FSD Beta, does. Stock is great, but having the use of the features is even better, it's worth tying up a few shares. I'd be SO depressed if I lost Beta FSD access. NOA was extremely useful, and now having it on the streets is fantastic. It seems like street Level NOA has perhaps even caught up to freeeway NOA. So Why wait? I don't need to wait for perfection. I don't see much fun in sleeping in the back. I LOVE the whole experience too much.

Not sure why more regressions on some cars. I do keep a small 100g counterweight on the right side spoke at 3:00. It makes full control, smooth reaction to nags, and quick disengaging a snap. I do a walkaround before driving, and keep my cameras really spotless, maybe that's a difference. The CA Bay Area is well mapped too.
 
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