12v battery issue, Tesla unsatisfactory response

[RayK]

However I'm bracing my anus for it anyway now....

That statement brings up so many uncomfortable images... especially since I'm way overdue for my first colonoscopy.

My 2 year 2.5 month, 18K mile LR RWD has not yet thrown the 12V warning. But it's something that is beginning to worry me. I'm not in an area that has constant high temps but a recent heatwave made me aware of the potential problem. So much so that I contacted Ohmmu last week and asked to be put on the mailing list for their Rev2 battery (shipping to current owners mid-October).

I had three batteries fail in my 2000 BMW 323i over the 18 years I had it. The original and I'm pretty sure two subsequent replacements; one from BMW and the other from Autozone. So effectively about 5 years of service on average. But some of it had to do with deep discharges because the aftermarket 12-disk CD changer I installed apparently did not go into an idle or sleep mode. If the car was left unused for a week and I didn't unplug the changer, the battery went dead. Several times with each battery I ended up putting a charger on it.

 

[NOLADriver]

@Tjhappel
How is this any different if your two ICE cars were blocking the driveway with a dead battery and you couldn't get the Tesla out ?? Would you send an "emergency roadside assistance" note to Toyota or BMW, or Honda and demand they rush over and change your dead 12v battery that was out of warranty ??

 

[Watts_Up]

If it's just a dead 12V:

That's a 12V replacement video. Still stupidly complicated for 12V replacement, but looks doable.
The video's from Ohmmu that makes a lithium 12V replacement, but covers the important stuff for a generic 12V.

Of course, you'd have to get the replacement 12V.

Looking at the comments from the video, anyone know how to reset the warning message?

I changed the 12v battery just as you had shown.
The car now works. However, the warning message to replace the battery soon did not go away.
I rebooted the car twice. Now what?

Here's a quick update.
The replace battery soon message never went away.
I brought car back to tesla.
Apparently, there is a reset button underneath the back seat on the passenger side.
It took the service tech 2 minutes. Now it's back to normal.

Can you link to a pic of this button?



​

 

[scottf200]

... this is a November 2018 build model 3 with 79k miles on it (non Uber/taxi) and I received ZERO WARNINGS about the battery. ...

We just tested my kids 2018 TM3 with 50K the other day. It seems like IR is one of the better ways. His battery is still great (IR-wise).
Related thread: P100D X 12V battery dying in a car without any warning?

 

[smatthew]

3rd new Tesla I’ve owned, relatively minor problems with my 3 until today when without a SINGLE warning my 12v is apparently dead? Car will not turn on for about 30 minutes, finally got it on, drove it forward 5 feet and tried to roll the window back up... bad call. Window is now stuck down and my car is now refusing to budge from the front of my driveway, it’s blocking 2 other cars so I can’t actually leave my house except on foot.

I sent an emergency roadside assistance message to tsla and explained that I could not get out, have 2 kids and all of our cars are stuck behind my model 3. They suggested I wait 12 days for roadside assistance... AWESOME... or that since my car is out of warranty I could Pay and have it flat bedded 40 miles away to the service center and they could sneak me in early October??

I drive a ton and I’m out of warranty (which I’m fine with) but this is a November 2018 build model 3 with 79k miles on it (non Uber/taxi) and I received ZERO WARNINGS about the battery. The person mentioned they had an issue and were diligently working on trying to give people a “heads up” about the bad or low battery. I know maintenance will always be needed on vehicles and am super happy to do it but no warning and now I’m stuck??

i have been a huge supporter, Im long tsla and I love what they’re doing to the auto world but service like this is just so so so bad it’s not even funny. Maybe my issue is that I owned a 2013 model s and when I had a problem someone would drive to my house and fix it like that minute.... those days are LONG GONE. This just surprised me tho since I could easily been stuck in a spot and have an issue.

If you're out of warranty, why are you expecting warranty service? And how could kids or pets have been stuck in the car with the windows rolled down?

 

[Daniel in SD]

That is simply silly. I've never has an ICE battery fail in less than five years and an EV battery is under much less strain...

This is true in theory but in practice engineers are lazy. No one would buy an ICE vehicle that drained the 12V battery after parking for a day. With EVs you can just recharge it from the main battery when it gets low.

The real question is whether battery makers will honor their warranties when a battery is installed in a Tesla? AGM batteries seem to have 4 year free replacements.

How is this any different if your two ICE cars were blocking the driveway with a dead battery and you couldn't get the Tesla out ?? Would you send an "emergency roadside assistance" note to Toyota or BMW, or Honda and demand they rush over and change your dead 12v battery that was out of warranty ??

No, you'd jumpstart the car, drive to the auto parts store, and replace the battery in the parking lot. On the BMW you'd hook up a scan tool to "register" the battery and curse BMW's ridiculous over-engineering of everything.

 

[TSLA Pilot]

@Tjhappel
How is this any different if your two ICE cars were blocking the driveway with a dead battery and you couldn't get the Tesla out ?? Would you send an "emergency roadside assistance" note to Toyota or BMW, or Honda and demand they rush over and change your dead 12v battery that was out of warranty ??

A Tesla can't just be "put in Neutral" and pushed out of the way when the 12-volt battery dies.

In this case, it became a two ton brick. Can't get in, can't get it in Neutral, and can't "jump start" it.

This is the sort of cluster frap that gives EV's a bad name . . . and that Tesla should have engineered better than they did. An example would be some creative way to get into the massive pile of energy stored in the main pack, despite the 12-volt being dead, so as to allow "fail safe mode" allowing one to at least move the "brick" out of the way. And open doors, close windows, etc.

Perhaps we'll have a surprise on Tuesday afternoon . . . .

 

[RayK]

Yes, you CAN get in but it requires an external battery and a little bit of time and effort. Then you can jump the 12V battery and it should be enough to either start the car or put it in neutral and push it out of the way.

 

[OCR1]

I would not expect Tesla to do something for free after the warranty expires. But I would expect them to be just as responsive to me as if the car was still under warranty, even if they were charging me for their service. When I owned a Lexus my Lexus dealership was no more or less responsive to fixing warranty items as they were not warranty items. They just charged me for the non warranty items which I was completely fine paying for.

So if my Tesla failed for whatever reason after the warranty ended, I would still expect them to treat me as a valued customer, and simply charge me whatever the going rate is for service.

Tesla promotes their roadside assistance as a solution to the fact that their cars do not come with a spare tire. If you get a flat, you call them, and they put on a spare to get you going again. After the warranty ends they discontinue this service, which means you will need to have a plan if you get a flat tire. AAA will tow you somewhere, but what if you are not near a tire store that has the tire you need in stock? Are you supposed to wait days for it to arrive before you drive your car again? There are definitely some gaps here that one needs to plan for after the warranty expires.

 

[P3dStealth]

I keep a small portable jump starter in the unused tow hitch door of my 3 just in case this happens to me one day. I will pull it out, open my frunk, charge the batter, drive home.

They have waterproof ones but I just stuck mine in a plastic bag.

 

[Az_Rael]

can't "jump start" it.

Sure you can, you can even jump it with another ICE vehicle. Just have to know how to pop the frunk. And it takes longer, so the person who helps you out has to have some patience. I used my jump starter kit on mine.

 

[TheRFMan]

Batteries die, that happens. But requiring 12V power to open access to the 12V battery is an idiotic feat of engineering. Would it be that hard to install an emergency latch under the dash?

 

[ALdawg]

My experience with a failed 12V battery is likely to lead me to proactive replacements.

June 2018 LR RWD Model 3 is currently dead in the driveway with 32K miles and was not initially accessible through the app. We tried to jumpstart the car. Briefly, the display booted and displayed a 12V battery warning. The car promptly dies and we were not able to restart car even with a mobile battery jump. I was offered a tow to ATL (160 miles) or mobile tech visit in five days with the expectation that 12V battery is the problem. I hope that is all it is and should be covered under warranty. Even with the portable jumpstarter connected to the battery, we now cannot enter the car and my wife’s wallet is locked inside. This does not seem as simple as "jumpstart car and drive to Costco".

Separately this car is still waiting on HW 3.0 upgrade. I was getting emails about parts being on order since June but those just mysteriously stopped.

 

[neurocutie]

The real question is whether battery makers will honor their warranties when a battery is installed in a Tesla? AGM batteries seem to have 4 year free replacements.

No, you'd jumpstart the car, drive to the auto parts store, and replace the battery in the parking lot. On the BMW you'd hook up a scan tool to "register" the battery and curse BMW's ridiculous over-engineering of everything.

That's a good question... Does AutoZone care what type of car it is?

Re: BMW, over-engineer yes, perhaps. Dealer's overcharging for "programming/registering a battery", sure. But my last BMW battery lasted 8-9 years, so maybe the engineering helps...

 

[neurocutie]

We just tested my kids 2018 TM3 with 50K the other day. It seems like IR is one of the better ways. His battery is still great (IR-wise).
Related thread: P100D X 12V battery dying in a car without any warning?

just trying to understand...

It seems like IR around 30milliohm is certainly bad if you are trying to start an ICE: Suppose the starter needs 250A to start the ICE. At 13.2V, 250A means a resistance of 0.053 ohms (53 milliohms). Not counting the resistance of the wiring, etc, adding the 30milliohm to make 83milliohm means that the starter is only going to get 160A instead of the 250A. With added resistance from wiring, switch, etc, only going to be worse.

However, the Tesla (I hope) doesn't need 250A or even 160A out of its 12V battery. I don't know what it needs, but supposing its 20A (about 250 watts).That's 0.66 ohms load, so adding an additional 30milliohm of IR just makes that 0.70 ohm so the Tesla "only" gets 19A of the 20A. I doubt that's a problem: the 30milliohm is just a 0.6V voltage drop at 19A.

So, not sure IR is the right way to test whether a 12V AGM battery for a Tesla is going to be good or not...

 

[RayK]

Batteries die, that happens. But requiring 12V power to open access to the 12V battery is an idiotic feat of engineering. Would it be that hard to install an emergency latch under the dash?

And how would you get to the latch if you are locked out of the car?

 

[ShaolinJ]

I live in the heat of Vegas where 12v batteries fail without warning in any car. I intend to replace the 12v every 2 years, and wouldn't expect it to last more than about 3 years anyway.

 

[fseir]

Yes, you CAN get in but it requires an external battery and a little bit of time and effort. Then you can jump the 12V battery and it should be enough to either start the car or put it in neutral and push it out of the way.

In my case, roadside service tried connecting a host battery to my dead battery, and it did nothing. On another 12V thread, @smatthew speculated that one of the cells in my 12V had shorted out (based on the strong sulfur odor), and the host battery couldn’t overcome the added resistance of the fried battery and the host battery cables, to jump my car. So it’s not always possible to simply jump the car to get it started or put it in neutral to push out of the way...

I was also one of the unlucky ones to have gotten zero warning before my car was bricked.

And while my 2013 Nissan Leaf also bricked with no warning due to a 12V failure, that battery was 7 years old, so I’ll cut it a little slack!

 

[SomeJoe7777]

just trying to understand...

It seems like IR around 30milliohm is certainly bad if you are trying to start an ICE: Suppose the starter needs 250A to start the ICE. At 13.2V, 250A means a resistance of 0.053 ohms (53 milliohms). Not counting the resistance of the wiring, etc, adding the 30milliohm to make 83milliohm means that the starter is only going to get 160A instead of the 250A. With added resistance from wiring, switch, etc, only going to be worse.

However, the Tesla (I hope) doesn't need 250A or even 160A out of its 12V battery. I don't know what it needs, but supposing its 20A (about 250 watts).That's 0.66 ohms load, so adding an additional 30milliohm of IR just makes that 0.70 ohm so the Tesla "only" gets 19A of the 20A. I doubt that's a problem: the 30milliohm is just a 0.6V voltage drop at 19A.

So, not sure IR is the right way to test whether a 12V AGM battery for a Tesla is going to be good or not...

30 milliohm with 20A of current is a power dissipation of 12 watts. That's fairly significant inside the non-cooled battery and can pretty easily overheat it if the current stays at 20A for while. So although the voltage drop is small with the small currents, the increased internal resistance is still a problem.

 

[tccartier]

3rd new Tesla I’ve owned, relatively minor problems with my 3 until today when without a SINGLE warning my 12v is apparently dead? Car will not turn on for about 30 minutes, finally got it on, drove it forward 5 feet and tried to roll the window back up... bad call. Window is now stuck down and my car is now refusing to budge from the front of my driveway, it’s blocking 2 other cars so I can’t actually leave my house except on foot.

I sent an emergency roadside assistance message to tsla and explained that I could not get out, have 2 kids and all of our cars are stuck behind my model 3. They suggested I wait 12 days for roadside assistance... AWESOME... or that since my car is out of warranty I could Pay and have it flat bedded 40 miles away to the service center and they could sneak me in early October??

I drive a ton and I’m out of warranty (which I’m fine with) but this is a November 2018 build model 3 with 79k miles on it (non Uber/taxi) and I received ZERO WARNINGS about the battery. The person mentioned they had an issue and were diligently working on trying to give people a “heads up” about the bad or low battery. I know maintenance will always be needed on vehicles and am super happy to do it but no warning and now I’m stuck??

i have been a huge supporter, Im long tsla and I love what they’re doing to the auto world but service like this is just so so so bad it’s not even funny. Maybe my issue is that I owned a 2013 model s and when I had a problem someone would drive to my house and fix it like that minute.... those days are LONG GONE. This just surprised me tho since I could easily been stuck in a spot and have an issue.

Well to be fair I received zero warnings about battery failures in my 1960 Lincoln Premier also. Or any vehicle that I've had that was not a Tesla.

To be fair however with this level of technology you would think that you could get a little bit of notice which I did in my Model S it began to tell me about one month before the inevitable failure may or may not have occurred. But I replaced the battery prior to that. Oddly enough in this day and time it's funny how a little bit of old technology such as an ammeter could be useful on your instrument display to give you a heads up.

However even in the days when we had gauges that would warn us in plenty of time that failure was inevitable there was no shortage of people that became stranded for an inevitable failure that the gauges were telling them was going to happen that they did not heed.

All that said this is not a Tesla issue it's a centuries-old automotive issue period could there be better warnings yes. My car gave them to me apparently yours did not however even when warnings are given how many times have we stranded ourselves by not listening to the gauges that were right in front of us.?