12v battery time (sigh)

[gregd]

Yep the goop is the secret stuff lol; You can clip and extend with a new wire; which we did.

What is a Front a rear end fascia?

Yeah, next time will do that for the battery, hopefully not for another 5+ years.

The front and rear pieces on my car are the ones from the 2.5 model, making the car look like a 2.5 when it's otherwise a 2.0. So I don't have all the sound deadening stuff, nor the 2-DIN in-dash unit. Some call it a "2.25" car, though it wasn't manufactured that way. The prior (original) owner had them swapped out at one point. TEG (of course) sent me a picture of the car prior to the change.

 

[gregd]

Done! I hope... The battery held its own with an unlock test (no alerts posted), but seems kind of slow to recover. There was still a big dip during the 3 seconds of whatever-it-is, down to 11.89 volts, ramping back up to 13.75v with the 5 minute "awake" time. But when that charging ended, it dropped way down with only the float current available. It's sitting at 13.26v right now, very slowly ramping up; it was 13.20v about an hour ago. I tried hooking a 1A "wall wart" that I use as a battery charger to it, and it zoomed up past 14.5v so I stopped it. Will let it sit until morning, and see if it gets up to the full 13.77v float by then.

I should close out this loose end... The next morning the battery voltage had risen to the full 13.76 float charge, though I should note that there was a daily "top off" session during the night. Issuing an unlock the next day saw the minimum voltage rise to just over 12v, and the recovery back to 13.77v completed during the 5 minute "awake" time. So, all seems good.

 

[eHorses]

I should close out this loose end... The next morning the battery voltage had risen to the full 13.76 float charge, though I should note that there was a daily’s "top off" session during the night. Issuing an unlock the next day saw the minimum voltage rise to just over 12v, and the recovery back to 13.77v completed during the 5 minute "awake" time. So, all seems good.

Do you or anyone on this thread knows how/when the 12v is recharged. What is the hardware and firmware responsible for maintaining the charge on the 12v?

I’ve replace three 12v within the last year, hence the picture of the different 12v above. I’ll have to look to see if I have pictures of error codes. Local SC put in a new switchpack and 12v. They Bleed tested the original ESS pack and everything looked Ok. Also, Gruber motors in AZ kindly looked at the logs for free and agreed that the APS was in great shape at the time. It’s currently charging normally.

The 12v died again after 6months. So, it’s current being replaced with a new lithium 12v.

Any suggestion would be great. Thanks in advance.

 

[jason.tv]

Do you or anyone on this thread knows how/when the 12v is recharged. What is the hardware and firmware responsible for maintaining the charge on the 12v?

I’ve replace three 12v within the last year, hence the picture of the different 12v above. I’ll have to look to see if I have pictures of error codes. Local SC put in a new switchpack and 12v. They Bleed tested the original ESS pack and everything looked Ok. Also, Gruber motors in AZ kindly looked at the logs for free and agreed that the APS was in great shape at the time. It’s currently charging normally.

The 12v died again after 6months. So, it’s current being replaced with a new lithium 12v.

Any suggestion would be great. Thanks in advance.

are your terminal wires corroded? Did you measure the levels of the dead battery? There's no way a battery can be empty like that after 6 months of use; let alone 3 more batteries in the past year.

Even if you had a 2,000w sub system hooked up to a led acid battery it won't die after 6 months. maybe a sub hooked up to the roadster battery might but you are not running a 2000w system so something is off.

Did you go to the service center to replace the battery or did you do it your self? The service center is not going to clip and extend the battery terminal wires for you. So in a year period or more you paid the service center $2,000 in battery swaps?

 

[gregd]

Do you or anyone on this thread knows how/when the 12v is recharged. What is the hardware and firmware responsible for maintaining the charge on the 12v?

I’ve replace three 12v within the last year, hence the picture of the different 12v above. I’ll have to look to see if I have pictures of error codes. Local SC put in a new switchpack and 12v. They Bleed tested the original ESS pack and everything looked Ok. Also, Gruber motors in AZ kindly looked at the logs for free and agreed that the APS was in great shape at the time. It’s currently charging normally.

The 12v died again after 6months. So, it’s current being replaced with a new lithium 12v.

Any suggestion would be great. Thanks in advance.

Odd. As Jason says, this makes no sense.

To your question, at least on my US model 2.0 car, there are two charging modes, and one discharge, under "normal" conditions. The battery is charged with up to several amps whenever the car is awake, aimed at getting it to 13.77v. It's trickle charged (perhaps 100ma) when the car is asleep, again aimed at a 13.77v float charge. The source of the asleep power is an inverter internal to the ESS, and I presume the APS supplies this when awake. So bottom line, if you put a meter on the battery at pretty much any time, you should always see 13.77v. I was able to check this because I had the SC wire in a connector accessible from above when they replaced the battery back in 2015.

The only "normal" discharge occurs when the Unlock button is pressed on the key fob. It's a 20-ish amp pull on the battery for about 3 seconds. Why it occurs is still a bit of a puzzle, but it's there regardless of whether the car is locked or unlocked, and awake or asleep. If the battery isn't able to maintain at least somewhere in the 10-11v level during that time, the car issues an alert (#248).

As Jason suggested, check the connections to the battery, though after so many tries, I expect they're going to be fine. I'd also look at the 30 amp fuse under the hood. It's on the passenger side, in the corner by the windshield. While you're in there, snake a wire from above down to the battery so you can monitor it later. That might be your best way to figure out what's going on.

 

[eHorses]

are your terminal wires corroded? Did you measure the levels of the dead battery? There's no way a battery can be empty like that after 6 months of use; let alone 3 more batteries in the past year.

Even if you had a 2,000w sub system hooked up to a led acid battery it won't die after 6 months. maybe a sub hooked up to the roadster battery might but you are not running a 2000w system so something is off.

Did you go to the service center to replace the battery or did you do it your self? The service center is not going to clip and extend the battery terminal wires for you. So in a year period or more you paid the service center $2,000 in battery swaps?

Thanks for your thoughts. Wiring and terminals looked good. I replace the first, not a hard task, and sc replaced the second 12v along with a new switchpack. I’ve since took it to the new local electrified garage to trouble shoot the failure, again. They’ve pulled logs and are trying to isolate the problem; however, everything is checking out so far. They’ve suggested a lithium 12v with a four year replacement warranty.

Odd. As Jason says, this makes no sense.

To your question, at least on my US model 2.0 car, there are two charging modes, and one discharge, under "normal" conditions. The battery is charged with up to several amps whenever the car is awake, aimed at getting it to 13.77v. It's trickle charged (perhaps 100ma) when the car is asleep, again aimed at a 13.77v float charge. The source of the asleep power is an inverter internal to the ESS, and I presume the APS supplies this when awake. So bottom line, if you put a meter on the battery at pretty much any time, you should always see 13.77v. I was able to check this because I had the SC wire in a connector accessible from above when they replaced the battery back in 2015.

The only "normal" discharge occurs when the Unlock button is pressed on the key fob. It's a 20-ish amp pull on the battery for about 3 seconds. Why it occurs is still a bit of a puzzle, but it's there regardless of whether the car is locked or unlocked, and awake or asleep. If the battery isn't able to maintain at least somewhere in the 10-11v level during that time, the car issues an alert (#248).

As Jason suggested, check the connections to the battery, though after so many tries, I expect they're going to be fine. I'd also look at the 30 amp fuse under the hood. It's on the passenger side, in the corner by the windshield. While you're in there, snake a wire from above down to the battery so you can monitor it later. That might be your best way to figure out what's going on.

Your explanation makes a lot of sense. I got multiple alerts when I was unable to open the door(it was parked unlocked), see pics. I was able to unlock and open the door after closing and opening the charging door. I’m afraid it may be the inverter in the ESS that’s causing it to fail by not recharging it. I’m not sure if sc or local garage can diagnose it. But still, what is killing the 12v when the car is just a garage queen? I’ll post if I get an answer.

 

[gregd]

Uh oh... #259 is not the 12v battery, it's referring to the main ESS. Same for #7. This is not a trivial one... No idea what 1522 is. #259 specifically talks about one of the battery sheets, not the inverter. How long have these errors been occurring? The 12v battery isn't happy because the car is deep into trying to protect itself, leaning on it for juice.

See Roadster VDS Messages | Tesla Motors Club

I'd get back in touch with the garage ASAP and discuss their capabilities to service the main battery, especially as they are local. Or have a chat with either Gruber or Medlock. What does the car think the battery charge / range is?

 

[eHorses]

Uh oh... #259 is not the 12v battery, it's referring to the main ESS. Same for #7. This is not a trivial one... No idea what 1522 is. #259 specifically talks about one of the battery sheets, not the inverter. How long have these errors been occurring? The 12v battery isn't happy because the car is deep into trying to protect itself, leaning on it for juice.

See Roadster VDS Messages | Tesla Motors Club

I'd get back in touch with the garage ASAP and discuss their capabilities to service the main battery, especially as they are local. Or have a chat with either Gruber or Medlock. What does the car think the battery charge / range is?

“The 12v battery isn't happy because the car is deep into trying to protect itself, leaning on it for juice.” That’s great incite and could explain the draw on the 12v and causing the issues. I can do basic wrenching but diagnosing electrical issue is beyond my paid grade.
I initially worked up this as the rivet problem as documented by Gruber Motors (attached). However, bleed tests (5-6x) were all ok. It’s a 2.0 with a CAC 150+. Other than the alerts I posted, It’s charging to 184 mile ideal range and driving. I’m hoping it’s not the ESS and thought of hooking up a trickle charge to the 12v to maintain it. It’s driving and charging so it pains me to think about shipping it across the country to get a diagnosis. I was told the local shop can and will drop the battery if needed. Fingers crossed.

 

[gregd]

“The 12v battery isn't happy because the car is deep into trying to protect itself, leaning on it for juice.” That’s great incite and could explain the draw on the 12v and causing the issues. I can do basic wrenching but diagnosing electrical issue is beyond my paid grade.
I initially worked up this as the rivet problem as documented by Gruber Motors (attached). However, bleed tests (5-6x) were all ok. It’s a 2.0 with a CAC 150+. Other than the alerts I posted, It’s charging to 184 mile ideal range and driving. I’m hoping it’s not the ESS and thought of hooking up a trickle charge to the 12v to maintain it. It’s driving and charging so it pains me to think about shipping it across the country to get a diagnosis. I was told the local shop can and will drop the battery if needed. Fingers crossed.

So, I think we're getting into a different topic than this thread, as the other errors suggest it's not simply a 12v battery-focused failure.

Can you start a new thread, and give a bit more detail on your history with the rivets, etc? Others will need to pitch in here, as that's getting beyond my pay grade too.

 

[eHorses]

So, I think we're getting into a different topic than this thread, as the other errors suggest it's not simply a 12v battery-focused failure.

Can you start a new thread, and give a bit more detail on your history with the rivets, etc? Others will need to pitch in here, as that's getting beyond my pay grade too.

I agree. For alert 259, There’s already a good discussion at

Not what you want to see on a Saturday night...

I was hoping to better understand the function of the 12v and how it get its marching orders. Thanks

 

[ML Auto]

Do you or anyone on this thread knows how/when the 12v is recharged. What is the hardware and firmware responsible for maintaining the charge on the 12v?

I’ve replace three 12v within the last year, hence the picture of the different 12v above. I’ll have to look to see if I have pictures of error codes. Local SC put in a new switchpack and 12v. They Bleed tested the original ESS pack and everything looked Ok. Also, Gruber motors in AZ kindly looked at the logs for free and agreed that the APS was in great shape at the time. It’s currently charging normally.

The 12v died again after 6months. So, it’s current being replaced with a new lithium 12v.

Any suggestion would be great. Thanks in advance.

You need to check the 12V voltage both when the car is on and when it is asleep. That will tell you if you have a problem.

 

[eHorses]

You need to check the 12V voltage both when the car is on and when it is asleep. That will tell you if you have a problem.

Ok, should i hook up trickle charger leads to the battery or check the fuse area in the passenger front hood? Neophyte at this

 

[PV-EV]

259 can be caused by low coolant level or bad pump.

 

[gregd]

Ok, should i hook up trickle charger leads to the battery or check the fuse area in the passenger front hood? Neophyte at this

I think what ML Auto is suggesting is to put a volt meter on the 12v battery (no charger), and see what it reads when the car is awake and asleep. You should see about 13.8 volts in both cases. There's a different source of charging current in the two cases, and this should help isolate where the fault is.

Be careful putting a charger on the battery. They are rather blunt instruments, and if they don't properly shut off, it might cook more than just the battery. Always monitor its operation with a meter.

And, yes, that fuse should be verified before doing anything else. Easy.

 

[einhalv]

I think what ML Auto is suggesting is to put a volt meter on the 12v battery (no charger), and see what it reads when the car is awake and asleep. You should see about 13.8 volts in both cases. There's a different source of charging current in the two cases, and this should help isolate where the fault is.

Be careful putting a charger on the battery. They are rather blunt instruments, and if they don't properly shut off, it might cook more than just the battery. Always monitor its operation with a meter.

And, yes, that fuse should be verified before doing anything else. Easy.

You can check battery and charging voltage through the fuse holder using the bracket of the 400V controller as a reference (ground). With the fuse out, that will give you the open-circuit voltage of the battery on one pin and the voltage on the connection to the switchpack on the other pin. You can do this with a multimeter.

To access the terminals of the fuse holder, I also tried a connector like this:

With this connector it is also possible to monitor the voltage while the car is on and charging the battery. It depends on how you connect fuses/shorts in its holders.

Actually I used this connector to make a cable that let me charge the battery using my own charger (CTEK) through the fuse holder with the battery disconnected from the car circuits. Due to other, more severe problems, I have only had the chance to test this while the service plug was disconnected. Therefore, I don't know if there are any pitfalls to this approach , but it seemed to work. The arrangement looks like this: