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14-50 in a condo complex

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I do have a panel in my individual unit, but it doesn't say how many amps are in it. There are a number of breakers in it.

How many miles per hour can a LR model 3 charge on a 14-30? And can I use the plug in Tesla home charger on this instead of hard wiring. I'm not sure if the 14-30 plug and 14-50 plug have the same number of prongs.

Just take a picture of the panel inside your unit so we can get an idea, though I think it won't matter anyways.

You can install a 14-30 plug and buy an adapter, that will get you 24 amps. For sustained loads you have to go with 80% of the capacity. The Model 3 can charge 22 miles of range per hour.

As for that HPWC with 14-50 that's discontinuued unless you can buy a used one. But given your situation you cannot put in a 14-50.

That device I linked you (the DCC) allows you to tap the line between your unit and the communal panel, so everything will run off of your meter, and will allow you to add stuff even if it goes over the limit because of how it operates. See: DCC-9 EVEMS for Electric Vehicle Charging in Condos and Apartments
 
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Just take a picture of the panel inside your unit so we can get an idea, though I think it won't matter anyways.

You can install a 14-30 plug and buy an adapter, that will get you 24 amps. For sustained loads you have to go with 80% of the capacity. The Model 3 can charge 22 miles of range per hour.

As for that HPWC with 14-50 that's discontinuued unless you can buy a used one. But given your situation you cannot put in a 14-50.

That device I linked you (the DCC) allows you to tap the line between your unit and the communal panel, so everything will run off of your meter, and will allow you to add stuff even if it goes over the limit because of how it operates. See: DCC-9 EVEMS for Electric Vehicle Charging in Condos and Apartments

So here's where I'm confused. We have an electrical room in the subterranean garage. In there is the master panel, as well as my unit's individual breaker and meter. This is going to be very non-technical, but as I understand it, a pipe with electrical wires goes from that breaker box, across the garage, crosses over my parking spot, and goes up into my unit's subpanel, bringing power to my unit.

So... If I want to use my subpanel and not the master condo panel, how does one add an additional circuit to my subpanel and get power into the subterranean parking spot that's directly below my unit. Is there a way to cut open that pipe and pull some of the wires down into the parking spot?

Or maybe I'm understanding incorrectly and the power for the EV plug would come off of the meter in the electrical room, which is about 20 ft from my spot. But I still am unclear how power comes from the subpanel in my unit and gets to the meter, and in turn, go the charger.

Sorry for the rudimentary explanation - my electrical knowledge is pretty limited.

Re the subpanel in my unit, attaching a couple photos.
 

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I'm the guy that created this thread:
I live in a condo. The main breaker is only 70A. Now what?

The solution was to use a DCC. It lets me charge at 24A (30A circuit) so i get 22 mi/hr. It'll work the same for you, even with a 60A main breaker.

It sounds like your garage is a subterranean one and it's shared with other residents. If this is the case then you have no choice but to involve the HOA because the EV charger (and likely the DCC) will be installed in a HOA common area (garage, electrical room, whatever).

What I recommend you do is find an electrician who's familiar with the DCC. Have them come out and quote you on the install. They'll tell you how and where to install everything. Then take the plans to the HOA. Getting approval from the HOA is the great unknown - it could be painless or it could be a nightmare. But submitting plans is the first place to start. If they reject then you may wish to speak to your neighbors about installing some type of shared EV charging system that other residents could use.

Here are a couple other interesting links:
Get EV Charging at Your Apartment or Condo | ChargePoint
My $6,000 Tesla Wall Connector: the story of bringing Electric Vehicle charging to a high-rise condo tower in Seattle - Jeff Wilcox
 
So here's where I'm confused. We have an electrical room in the subterranean garage. In there is the master panel, as well as my unit's individual breaker and meter. This is going to be very non-technical, but as I understand it, a pipe with electrical wires goes from that breaker box, across the garage, crosses over my parking spot, and goes up into my unit's subpanel, bringing power to my unit.

So... If I want to use my subpanel and not the master condo panel, how does one add an additional circuit to my subpanel and get power into the subterranean parking spot that's directly below my unit. Is there a way to cut open that pipe and pull some of the wires down into the parking spot?

Or maybe I'm understanding incorrectly and the power for the EV plug would come off of the meter in the electrical room, which is about 20 ft from my spot. But I still am unclear how power comes from the subpanel in my unit and gets to the meter, and in turn, go the charger.

Sorry for the rudimentary explanation - my electrical knowledge is pretty limited.

Re the subpanel in my unit, attaching a couple photos.

I think a diagram will help. In the end you're not going to run anything directly off the subpanel, but you'll be using the DCC device to feed the charger.

upload_2020-7-8_1-50-7.png


The DCC device will be placed in the middle or wherever your parking spot is. The current line from the 60A breaker will feed into the DCC device. From there a connection will continue from the DCC device to your condo subpanel. There's also a separate connection from the DCC device that will go to the 14-30 plug .

So in the end everything will be running off your meter so you won't have billing issues, and the DCC device will measure power draw and cut power to the 14-30 plug as necessary to stay within the 60A limit.

I suggest you find/reach out to an electrician who has experience with DCC devices. They should know what to do and can help with the necessary proposal for the HOA board.
 
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I think a diagram will help. In the end you're not going to run anything directly off the subpanel, but you'll be using the DCC device to feed the charger.

View attachment 561924

The DCC device will be placed in the middle or wherever your parking spot is. The current line from the 60A breaker will feed into the DCC device. From there a connection will continue from the DCC device to your condo subpanel. There's also a separate connection from the DCC device that will go to the 14-30 plug .

So in the end everything will be running off your meter so you won't have billing issues, and the DCC device will measure power draw and cut power to the 14-30 plug as necessary to stay within the 60A limit.

I suggest you find/reach out to an electrician who has experience with DCC devices. They should know what to do and can help with the necessary proposal for the HOA board.

Thank you for doing this. Very helpful. Can you help me understand why I need the DCC-9 device if I'm going to be using a 14-30 switch? It seems like that's such low power that it wouldn't need to be regulated against my in-unit power (though I could be terribly wrong). How do I know if the DCC-9, which is over $1k, is necessary? Is there a reason to believe a 60 amp feed can't handle a 14-30 on its own?

And re your diagram, how do you get the existing wire down to the 14-30? It appears that my individual unit wiring comes out of the breaker/meter area, goes into some piping that goes over my parking space, and then snakes around my huge garage through those pipes, eventually making its way into my unit. Is it just a matter of opening up those pipes, pulling a wire out and splicing it so there's something that goes into the Dcc-9? Or in this example, does an entirely new wire need to be added that goes from the meter to the dcc-9 and then up to my panel? If it's the latter, we're talking about hundreds of feet of wiring because the electrical pipes seem to snake around about 200 feet before they go into my unit's panel.
 
Also, one more question re DCC-9. If my unit has a 60 amp max, my understanding is the DCC will cut off the power to the EV plug when the load in the house hits 48 amps. So what happens when you have a 14-30 ev plug, and the house is using 47 amps? In this scenario, the DCC will not have regulated the power to the plug since it's under 80%, but there are only 13 amps left to supply a plug that needs 30. Would this result in the master breaker tripping? If so, I'm not seeing the advantage to the DCC since the only way a 14-30 plug can work is if there's 30 amps available. If the panel only supports 60 amps, that means the home can only be using 30amps for the 14-30 amp plug to woek. But if the home is using, say, 32 amps, the DCC doesn't regulate the amps, but the ev plug doesn't have enough power. So what's the point of the DCC if it ONLY shuts off the ev plug at 48 amps odlf usage? At that point, the ev charger already didn't have enough power in the first place.
 
@Beachybumm

Depending on location of your spot and all the other electronics, the conduit (pipe) would probably be cut back by the electrical panels and a second conduit run to the spot. But it would be up to the electrician. Cutting a conduit in the middle would not have much slack to pull wires. In fact, they may pull the wires out, cut, and then pull wires again.

30a is a huge % of a 60a circuit. Esp given it can run for long periods when charging. Most large loads do not run for a long time - for example an oven, dryer, or home heater will cycle on/off when they are running. For that reason, continuous loads one is limited to 80% of the circuit rating. So a 30a outlet should only allow the car to charge at 24a. But, yes, you are correct, if you are really using that much power in your house all the time then the DCC would be tripped off more often than not.


Questions -

1. How much do you drive per day?

2. What electric appliances do you have in your unit that consume power?
 
So what's the point of the DCC if it ONLY shuts off the ev plug at 48 amps odlf usage? At that point, the ev charger already didn't have enough power in the first place.

The point of the DCC is to add on a new circuit *without* the need to re-perform a load calculation, and to avoid major (and costly) upgrade of common electrical infrastructure. It has to do with keeping things to code and ensuring a greater electric load isn't presented to a system that was never designed for it, which in some cases could be decades old.

What are the biggest consumers of electricity in your condo? Electric stove? Electric dryer? Central AC? Water heater? In reality those are the only things to look out for. Having been a DCC user for a year and a half I can tell you there was only one instance where the DCC would trip consistently and that was the brief instant the central AC turned on. AC compressors present a gigantic load for a brief instant right when they turn on - they call this LRA, or Locked Rotor Amps. It can be upwards of 70A or 80A, even for a compressor that sits on a 30A circuit (as mine does).
 
I'm still not clear on why I'd need to upgrade anything. If the main breaker is able to power 15 units, plus a condo security system, plus garage lights, then it seems that it should be able to supply an EV charger. And I guess I don't understand why my unit's box can't just have an additional circuit added rather than going from the main box. If that main box can power it, why can't I just route extra power to my panel?
From the pictures I’m guessing that each unit is limited by a two pole (240 volt) breaker (those are the ones over the meters). From there you can figure your capacity at 60 amps X 240 which would equal roughly 14 kw, which off that 60/2 cb goes to your respective unit. The utility panel you’ve shown is for general loads like outside lighting. As others have posited you’ll certainly have to ask/petition your HOA running things for a circuit, which that will have to be done by a licensed EC. Good luck.
 
@Beachybumm

Depending on location of your spot and all the other electronics, the conduit (pipe) would probably be cut back by the electrical panels and a second conduit run to the spot. But it would be up to the electrician. Cutting a conduit in the middle would not have much slack to pull wires. In fact, they may pull the wires out, cut, and then pull wires again.

30a is a huge % of a 60a circuit. Esp given it can run for long periods when charging. Most large loads do not run for a long time - for example an oven, dryer, or home heater will cycle on/off when they are running. For that reason, continuous loads one is limited to 80% of the circuit rating. So a 30a outlet should only allow the car to charge at 24a. But, yes, you are correct, if you are really using that much power in your house all the time then the DCC would be tripped off more often than not.


Questions -

1. How much do you drive per day?

2. What electric appliances do you have in your unit that consume power?

I'm driving, on average, 25 miles per day.

My unit has a/c and heat. A gas dryer, a washer, dishwasher, oven and microwave. I also run a small Vornado fan at night.

It's 1400 Sq feet.
 
The point of the DCC is to add on a new circuit *without* the need to re-perform a load calculation, and to avoid major (and costly) upgrade of common electrical infrastructure. It has to do with keeping things to code and ensuring a greater electric load isn't presented to a system that was never designed for it, which in some cases could be decades old.

What are the biggest consumers of electricity in your condo? Electric stove? Electric dryer? Central AC? Water heater? In reality those are the only things to look out for. Having been a DCC user for a year and a half I can tell you there was only one instance where the DCC would trip consistently and that was the brief instant the central AC turned on. AC compressors present a gigantic load for a brief instant right when they turn on - they call this LRA, or Locked Rotor Amps. It can be upwards of 70A or 80A, even for a compressor that sits on a 30A circuit (as mine does).

I
The point of the DCC is to add on a new circuit *without* the need to re-perform a load calculation, and to avoid major (and costly) upgrade of common electrical infrastructure. It has to do with keeping things to code and ensuring a greater electric load isn't presented to a system that was never designed for it, which in some cases could be decades old.

What are the biggest consumers of electricity in your condo? Electric stove? Electric dryer? Central AC? Water heater? In reality those are the only things to look out for. Having been a DCC user for a year and a half I can tell you there was only one instance where the DCC would trip consistently and that was the brief instant the central AC turned on. AC compressors present a gigantic load for a brief instant right when they turn on - they call this LRA, or Locked Rotor Amps. It can be upwards of 70A or 80A, even for a compressor that sits on a 30A circuit (as mine does).

My unit has a/c and heat. A gas dryer, a washer, dishwasher, oven and microwave. I also run a small Vornado fan at night. Then I also have the basics, lights, tvs, etc.

I brought an electrician in this am and he said my unit almost certainly wouldn't pass a load test, even though he had no idea what appliances were in my apartment. He said I'd likely need a TOU meter from LADWP with a dedicated line, and then he'd install a subpanel by my breaker, which would run to the ev charger. Cost would be $3k, which is crazy for a 20 ft conduit run.

He said that even if my unit passes the load test, he'd have to add a new subpanel down by my meter, and then run that to the ev charger. And again, that would still cost $3k.

And if I understand the dcc-9 correctly, it does not require the addition of a new subpanel. But I may be misunderstanding.

Regardless, he seems to quote me 3k regardless of the direction I go.
 
Update after meeting with 1st electrician:

He recognized I had a 60 amp breaker and said that I would not pass a load test for a 14-50, which I knew. I asked about a 14-30, and he said "that depends" on what's inside my house - but he didn't seem to think it would pass either way. I asked about the DCC-9, and he said that is an option, but I'm unclear as to whether he'd need to add a new subpanel that routes into the DCC-9, or if he can just go from the breaker/meter into the DCC-9.

I am still confused re: the DCC-9, though. I really don't understand its value. If I need 30A of power for an ev plug (24A actual use), and I'm on a 60A breaker, then the power would only be routed away from the EV plug when my unit is using 48A+ (80% of 60A). So what happens when I'm using 40A inside my unit, but my plug needs 30A (also unclear whether the 14-30A plug needs the full 30A or just 24A)? In this scenario, how is the DCC-9 having an impact? If I have to wait to use 48A for the DCC-9 to veer power away from EV Plug, my breaker would've already triggered by then. Am I misunderstanding? Or maybe this requires a smaller DCC-9, like a 40A? And then it would trigger at 32A of usage inside the house. But that would still cause a problem, right? If the house was using 31A, then the DCC-9 wouldn't trigger, but I'd be using 31A+30a (for the plug), which would be 1 amp too many.

I asked if I could come off the house panel, and he said he doubted there was enough power there, either. He said that would need to be tested by an engineer, not an electrician. That sounds really expensive and unnecessary. Not clear why he couldn't just look at the box and make a judgment call.

But re the scenarios above, particularly with the DCC-9, would be great if someone could help me understand a bit more.

Thanks!
 
And if I understand the dcc-9 correctly, it does not require the addition of a new subpanel. But I may be misunderstanding.

it kinda acts as a sub panel. As someone diagrammed above, it sits in the line from the meter up to your unit and provides a tap for up to 30a circuit (24a charging).

The DCC is a load shedding device.

INPUT
-> house
-> charger

it is actually measuring the INPUT (sum of house and car) to see if it exceeds a threshold. If it exceeds it, it will disconnect the car from the circuit. After some amount of time it will reconnect and try again.

yes, a breaker kinda does the same thing. But a breaker will not reset, a breaker will turn off everything, and a breaker can fail (esp if used frequently).

As long as the total use stays under the target, all good. What I would do is set my car to charge off hours and at low current so it would never trip.

if I needed a faster charge rate I’d bump it up and make sure I wasn’t using any major appliances at the time.
 
Btw - for your low mileage, you could easily survive on a 5-20 - 120v/20a. Or even a standard wall outlet 120v/15a.

would the HOA consider a regular outlet off their panel and a flat monthly fee? You would save enough on installation that you could pay a rounded up monthly price and everyone comes out ahead.
 
Update after meeting with 1st electrician:

He recognized I had a 60 amp breaker and said that I would not pass a load test for a 14-50, which I knew. I asked about a 14-30, and he said "that depends" on what's inside my house - but he didn't seem to think it would pass either way. I asked about the DCC-9, and he said that is an option, but I'm unclear as to whether he'd need to add a new subpanel that routes into the DCC-9, or if he can just go from the breaker/meter into the DCC-9.

I am still confused re: the DCC-9, though. I really don't understand its value. If I need 30A of power for an ev plug (24A actual use), and I'm on a 60A breaker, then the power would only be routed away from the EV plug when my unit is using 48A+ (80% of 60A). So what happens when I'm using 40A inside my unit, but my plug needs 30A (also unclear whether the 14-30A plug needs the full 30A or just 24A)? In this scenario, how is the DCC-9 having an impact? If I have to wait to use 48A for the DCC-9 to veer power away from EV Plug, my breaker would've already triggered by then. Am I misunderstanding? Or maybe this requires a smaller DCC-9, like a 40A? And then it would trigger at 32A of usage inside the house. But that would still cause a problem, right? If the house was using 31A, then the DCC-9 wouldn't trigger, but I'd be using 31A+30a (for the plug), which would be 1 amp too many.

I asked if I could come off the house panel, and he said he doubted there was enough power there, either. He said that would need to be tested by an engineer, not an electrician. That sounds really expensive and unnecessary. Not clear why he couldn't just look at the box and make a judgment call.

But re the scenarios above, particularly with the DCC-9, would be great if someone could help me understand a bit more.

Thanks!

Ok, I'll see if I can help you out. Some good advice above with the DCC. The first thing (and I'm a little surprised your electrician hasn't done this as it's easy) is to do a load calculation on your existing unit. Given the square footage and the fact that you have AC and an electric oven, they are likely correct that you are already at the high end of the available capacity of 60 amps for your unit. The size of the breakers in your subpanel have nothing to do with the available amps you have, they are there to protect your wiring nor what your typical usage during the day is. The load calculation can be done with this form:

https://www.ladbs.org/docs/default-...oad-calculation-form-in-form-00.pdf?sfvrsn=14

So to explain the DCC, what this does is allow you to exceed the max amps based on the load calculation above because it will automatically shut off power to your EV charger when you reach the max allowable for your 60 amp service. Soon as your use drops down (say the AC shuts off) the DCC powers up your charger again and the way you go. In the scenario above, where you are using 40 amps in your unit and you need 24 amps to charge, you would not be charging. Likely that would only happen intermittently, I would be surprised if during your normal day you are even using 15 amps. At night when you likely will be charging, use should be low and not trip the DCC. High loads are when your AC unit starts up, oven is on, hot water heater on, etc. If all are happening at the same time that's when the DCC goes into action.

Hope that helps-
 
I am still confused re: the DCC-9, though. I really don't understand its value. If I need 30A of power for an ev plug (24A actual use), and I'm on a 60A breaker, then the power would only be routed away from the EV plug when my unit is using 48A+ (80% of 60A). So what happens when I'm using 40A inside my unit, but my plug needs 30A (also unclear whether the 14-30A plug needs the full 30A or just 24A)? In this scenario, how is the DCC-9 having an impact? If I have to wait to use 48A for the DCC-9 to veer power away from EV Plug, my breaker would've already triggered by then. Am I misunderstanding?

The DCC is not capable of shutting power off to the rest of your condo, only the EV charger. The 48A trigger point is based on the sum-total of the EV charger *and* the rest of the condo.

Suppose you're charging your car at 24A; that means you have 24A left to spare for the rest of the condo before the DCC will trip and shut off the charger. 24A is actually a decent amount of juice. The only two items you'd have to think about are the AC and maybe your stove/oven, assuming they are electric and not gas.

What kind of AC unit do you have? How large is the circuit breaker that feeds it? You should be able to find this in your unit's subpanel. As I mentioned earlier, the only thing that ever tripped my DCC was the AC, and that was only during the very brief instant when it first turns on. Otherwise you'll probably have to try hard to use enough electricity to make it trip.

One last thing: No matter what route you take, $3K doesn't sound unreasonable given your situation (HOA common areas, the conduits, the planning/permitting, etc). Cost of doing business.
 
The idea of the DCC is to add more demand than capacity because they know that the demand is not constant. From 11pm to 5am do you usually use the stove and oven? You probably don't even run the AC (or at least most months, maybe June - September in SoCal you would keep it running) at night. You might only be using 5 amps or something overnight and the car can have the rest during that time. BUT, the DCC is there for the emergency situation that you wake up at midnight and turn the oven on to heat up some pizza, boil some water on the stove for tea, and crank the AC. When that load spike hits the DCC will stop charging the car because you'll be exceeding your capacity then. The DCC does NOT *somehow* allow you to be doing all those things at once, you'll still need to plan a routine on charging. To be honest, I've never explored the time of use charging with Tesla, so even with a DCC you might want a 3rd party EVSE that is highly programmable (start charging at 11:30pm and stop by 5am) type thing.

Others are right though, while it's nice having a real fast charging session, if you're driving 50 miles or less a day, you probably would be fine on a 20 amp 120 volt circuit. You can use 80% of that for continuous loads which means about 1.9kW to the car. Eight hours overnight would be enough to charge about 15kWh (maybe 14kWh with charging loses and stuff). That's almost 30% of the SR+ battery and almost 20% of the LR AWD battery and should be good for about 50 to 60 miles a day... even at highway speeds with the AC on.
 
Ok, I'll see if I can help you out. Some good advice above with the DCC. The first thing (and I'm a little surprised your electrician hasn't done this as it's easy) is to do a load calculation on your existing unit. Given the square footage and the fact that you have AC and an electric oven, they are likely correct that you are already at the high end of the available capacity of 60 amps for your unit. The size of the breakers in your subpanel have nothing to do with the available amps you have, they are there to protect your wiring nor what your typical usage during the day is. The load calculation can be done with this form:

https://www.ladbs.org/docs/default-...oad-calculation-form-in-form-00.pdf?sfvrsn=14

So to explain the DCC, what this does is allow you to exceed the max amps based on the load calculation above because it will automatically shut off power to your EV charger when you reach the max allowable for your 60 amp service. Soon as your use drops down (say the AC shuts off) the DCC powers up your charger again and the way you go. In the scenario above, where you are using 40 amps in your unit and you need 24 amps to charge, you would not be charging. Likely that would only happen intermittently, I would be surprised if during your normal day you are even using 15 amps. At night when you likely will be charging, use should be low and not trip the DCC. High loads are when your AC unit starts up, oven is on, hot water heater on, etc. If all are happening at the same time that's when the DCC goes into action.

Hope that helps-

Helpful, thanks.

Is there a specific version of the DCC I should get? I know there is one for 40A, 50A and 60A.

And just to put a finer point on your explanation - if I'm using 40A, even though that's less that 80% (48A) of 60A, the DCC will know not to power the charger? Is that because the charger sends a signal to the DCC saying it needs 24A, and the DCC says, "no, you're already using 40A in the house, sorry"?
 
Also
The idea of the DCC is to add more demand than capacity because they know that the demand is not constant. From 11pm to 5am do you usually use the stove and oven? You probably don't even run the AC (or at least most months, maybe June - September in SoCal you would keep it running) at night. You might only be using 5 amps or something overnight and the car can have the rest during that time. BUT, the DCC is there for the emergency situation that you wake up at midnight and turn the oven on to heat up some pizza, boil some water on the stove for tea, and crank the AC. When that load spike hits the DCC will stop charging the car because you'll be exceeding your capacity then. The DCC does NOT *somehow* allow you to be doing all those things at once, you'll still need to plan a routine on charging. To be honest, I've never explored the time of use charging with Tesla, so even with a DCC you might want a 3rd party EVSE that is highly programmable (start charging at 11:30pm and stop by 5am) type thing.

Others are right though, while it's nice having a real fast charging session, if you're driving 50 miles or less a day, you probably would be fine on a 20 amp 120 volt circuit. You can use 80% of that for continuous loads which means about 1.9kW to the car. Eight hours overnight would be enough to charge about 15kWh (maybe 14kWh with charging loses and stuff). That's almost 30% of the SR+ battery and almost 20% of the LR AWD battery and should be good for about 50 to 60 miles a day... even at highway speeds with the AC on.

If I use a DCC, do I still need to pass a load test on my individual unit's circuit? I can't imagine I ever use 60 Amps at once. That just doesn't make sense.

If it's going to cost $3k to install an individual TOU meter or $3k to do DCC version, isn't it better to just do the former, since that will allow me to get the full 60A? Guess I'm not understanding why they are the same price. Seems like DCC is easy - add a 20 ft conduit to my spot, install DCC, wire down to the plug. Why is that the same price as installing a brand new meter?