14-50 nema materials checklist

[Sophias_dad]

Thank you. The plan is indeed to install a 6-50 outlet for a UMC for now, but with a thought of possibly upgrading to one or more, likely two, Wall Chargers in the future. This is why I want the full 60 amps for if/when one or two Wall Chargers are going to be drawing (the I believe) 48 amps max.

The ceiling in the basement is fully finished, and we will be fishing the wire along and through joists. Luckily there are some recessed lights that can be popped out to make the process less painful. I expect only one area (turn) where we will have to open up the ceiling sheetrock to run the wire. I'll leave this to the experienced electrician. He also did mention that in the garage the wire is going into a conduit. I guess I just didn't definitively clear with him that we're running THHN wire and not Romex, but I will clarify that. Plus I want to either order the wire myself or at least make sure he doesn't overspend on it (from the quick price check I did: WireAndCableYourWay is only about $20 cheaper than Home Depot, but Lowes is another $100 on top of that).

Any recommendations on a good quality 6-50 outlet and where to buy?
Thanks

The hubbell part number is HBL9367, somewhere around $30 any number of places. Note that you are also supposed to have a GFCI in the circuit, meaning a nice new $100-$150 circuit breaker! Are you sure you don't want to just hop to the HPWC right away? Be aware that if you really DO plan to have two HPWCs someday soon, you'd be better off putting a decent subpanel into the garage right now, since the new HPWCs each require a breaker. If you go down the new subpanel path, you also need to have a neutral line going to that subpanel!

 

[k.alexander]

The hubbell part number is HBL9367, somewhere around $30 any number of places. Note that you are also supposed to have a GFCI in the circuit, meaning a nice new $100-$150 circuit breaker! Are you sure you don't want to just hop to the HPWC right away? Be aware that if you really DO plan to have two HPWCs someday soon, you'd be better off putting a decent subpanel into the garage right now, since the new HPWCs each require a breaker. If you go down the new subpanel path, you also need to have a neutral line going to that subpanel!

Huh?! So I am aware of the need for a subpanel for two HPWCs. BUT, this is the first time I've heard that I would need a neutral wire for the sub-panel. Are you sure that is the case? Can anyone confirm that as true or not?

Yeah, I've been going back and forth on 6-50 vs an HPWC specifically because the cost difference starts go away between the GFCI, outlet, additional UMC adapter, etc. I may ask the electrician to add up the numbers (or do it myself) and make the final decision. The worry is that by the time I need a second HPWC, they're up to gen4 or 5, and which then of course won't work with my gen3, and I'll need to get two new ones anyways.

 

[Sophias_dad]

Huh?! So I am aware of the need for a subpanel for two HPWCs. BUT, this is the first time I've heard that I would need a neutral wire for the sub-panel. Are you sure that is the case? Can anyone confirm that as true or not?

Yeah, I've been going back and forth on 6-50 vs an HPWC specifically because the cost difference starts go away between the GFCI, outlet, additional UMC adapter, etc. I may ask the electrician to add up the numbers (or do it myself) and make the final decision. The worry is that by the time I need a second HPWC, they're up to gen4 or 5, and which then of course won't work with my gen3, and I'll need to get two new ones anyways.

If you are absolutely positive that you'll never want a 120V load(OR GFCI) in that shiny new subpanel, it looks like it technically NEED a neutral. GFCI breakers want their extra line connected to neutral rather than ground. Yes, some might argue they are interchangeable, but the electrical inspector won't accept any such arguments. If you don't plan on getting it inspected, you can totally ignore the 'needs a separate breaker' and just daisy-chain the HPWCs like the Gen2 did. It wouldn't be a code or instruction compliant installation, but it would work just fine.

Note also that if EMT conduit is in use, it can serve as a ground and you don't need a ground wire at all.

You don't need another UMC(and probably not an extra adapter, even), unless you plan to take a LOT of long trips in your tesla. Just leave the j1772 adapter in the car and the UMC plugged in and you should be fine.

 

[k.alexander]

If you are absolutely positive that you'll never want a 120V load(OR GFCI) in that shiny new subpanel, it looks like it technically NEED a neutral. GFCI breakers want their extra line connected to neutral rather than ground. Yes, some might argue they are interchangeable, but the electrical inspector won't accept any such arguments. If you don't plan on getting it inspected, you can totally ignore the 'needs a separate breaker' and just daisy-chain the HPWCs like the Gen2 did. It wouldn't be a code or instruction compliant installation, but it would work just fine.

Note also that if EMT conduit is in use, it can serve as a ground and you don't need a ground wire at all.

You don't need another UMC(and probably not an extra adapter, even), unless you plan to take a LOT of long trips in your tesla. Just leave the j1772 adapter in the car and the UMC plugged in and you should be fine.

Ok, hey yeah thanks for the clarification. No I would not want a 120V load out of that sub-panel, I've got plenty of other outlets in the garage, and am only running this wire/doing the install solely for EV/Tesla charger(s).

Now when you say "(OR GFCI)" are you talking about a GFCI outlet in the garage? As I'm a somewhat unclear on what exactly a "GFI breaker" is? Do you mind explaining? I'm as much interested in learning how stuff works and goes together as I am in just figuring out what I need for this particular use case scenario.

And yes, I completely agree. I have no intention of buying a second UMC, and will just keep the one that comes in the car plugged into the wall in the garage. We rarely travel far out of town, and if/when we do, I don't see it as a huge hassle to unplug the UMC and throw in in the trunk. Thanks again.

 

[roblab]

Just let the electrician know that Tesla recommends Hubbell or Bryant 14-50 receptacles. (These companies have now merged.) Also Cooper manufactures high quality receptacles. You do not want the electrician to install a Leviton 14-50 receptacle (this would be fine for an electric range/oven but not for charging an EV.)

Well... Sure, whatever you say. I put Leviton in my garage when I was building it a dozen years ago, and used one outlet to power first my RAV4EV, and then a succession of Teslas. NEVER had any problems with charging any of my cars. Now of my fourth, my wife's Model 3, Seems to me that all this concern is just a tad overblown. Of course, if you have problems, then, sure, buy a new outlet, but I doubt that one outlet over another is all that important. I got mine at The Home Depot, cheap. Oh, and I also used wire. Didn't check the maker. Never knew Tesla recommends certain outlets now, but they sure didn't when I built my garage.

 

[Sophias_dad]

Ok, hey yeah thanks for the clarification. No I would not want a 120V load out of that sub-panel, I've got plenty of other outlets in the garage, and am only running this wire/doing the install solely for EV/Tesla charger(s).

Now when you say "(OR GFCI)" are you talking about a GFCI outlet in the garage? As I'm a somewhat unclear on what exactly a "GFI breaker" is? Do you mind explaining? I'm as much interested in learning how stuff works and goes together as I am in just figuring out what I need for this particular use case scenario.

And yes, I completely agree. I have no intention of buying a second UMC, and will just keep the one that comes in the car plugged into the wall in the garage. We rarely travel far out of town, and if/when we do, I don't see it as a huge hassle to unplug the UMC and throw in in the trunk. Thanks again.

GFCI for outlets larger than the standard 120V/15(or 20) amp ones that are commonly seen in kitchens and bathrooms is done at the breaker rather than at the point-of-use. Instead of using a standard not-GFCI breaker that costs $10-$20 for a 50 amp 240 volt load, you get to pay $100-$200 for a GFCI version of the same breaker. The dollar range is large because every panel/breaker maker is different (Square-D, Eaton, Murray/Siemens, and so on), and they can basically charge whatever they like.

The only reason I mention it is if you put in a 240V subpanel and skip the neutral and your next car requires a 6-50 outlet to charge, you'll need a GFCI breaker for it(and the GFCI will need the neutral). If it requires a 14-50, you'll need the neutral both for the outlet AND the GFCI breaker.

The GFCI breaker is constantly measuring the power out one line and making sure exactly the same power comes back the other line. If there's a mismatch of even millivolts(presumably because that power has found an unfortunate path to ground), the breaker trips and whatever was causing that path is safe from being cooked alive or otherwise electrocuted.

 

[Rocky_H]

Well... Sure, whatever you say. I put Leviton in my garage when I was building it a dozen years ago, and used one outlet to power first my RAV4EV, and then a succession of Teslas. NEVER had any problems with charging any of my cars. Now of my fourth, my wife's Model 3, Seems to me that all this concern is just a tad overblown. Of course, if you have problems, then, sure, buy a new outlet, but I doubt that one outlet over another is all that important. I got mine at The Home Depot, cheap. Oh, and I also used wire. Didn't check the maker. Never knew Tesla recommends certain outlets now, but they sure didn't when I built my garage.

Your extremely high level of not giving a crap about stuff is matched only by your arrogance about it. And it is doing a big disservice to people who are having to read these forums trying to learn things.

There absolutely is a huge difference in the safety level of these types of outlets and people would do well to understand that. Here is some very helpful reading on this:

Master Thread: Definitive 14-50 NEMA Outlet Guide

Comparing the 2 outlets recommended by Tesla with the sub $10 big box model as well as the one I think you should buy 1. Hubbell 9450a 2. Bryant 9450fr 3. Cooper 5754n 4. Leviton 279-S00 The Hubbell and Bryant are far and away the superior product here and since Hubbell owns Bryant and these...

teslamotorsclub.com

In many different threads your repeated reasoning of not having burned your house down yet to support some pretty bad ideas is also not helpful or informative. Sure, I also still have a cheap Leviton 14-50 outlet, because I didn't know any better back in early 2014 and I haven't gotten around to installing the wall connector I have yet. But I know that is not a very good situation, and I warn people to make wiser choices than this now since they get to start from scratch doing it better.

 

[k.alexander]

@Rocky_H Since you're talking about 14-50 outlets, I figured I'll ask. As you know from some other comments we exchanged, I'm likely putting in a 6-50. I asked for recommended 6-50 outlets, and so far, actually just above, was recommended a Hubbell part number HBL9367. Is that a decent outlet? Any other recommendations? Thanks as always.

Oh PS: I may end up sourcing my own 6AWG wire. www.wireandcableyourway.com was recommended on here. Any other recommendations for where to order wire cost-effectively?

 

[Rocky_H]

@Rocky_H Since you're talking about 14-50 outlets, I figured I'll ask. As you know from some other comments we exchanged, I'm likely putting in a 6-50. I asked for recommended 6-50 outlets, and so far, actually just above, was recommended a Hubbell part number HBL9367. Is that a decent outlet? Any other recommendations? Thanks as always.

I would just stick with the same general thing: Cooper, Hubbel, and Bryant should all be good, and I would avoid Leviton. It's probably the same regardless of whether it's a 14-50 or 6-50.

Oh PS: I may end up sourcing my own 6AWG wire. www.wireandcableyourway.com was recommended on here. Any other recommendations for where to order wire cost-effectively?

I wouldn't think there's much difference in wire; it basically is what it is, which I have heard other people mentioning as well. The outlet thing is different, because there is more physical detail to how they are mechanically built, what shape the terminals are, how easy it is to get wires held in well and tightened enough, etc.

 

[k.alexander]

I wouldn't think there's much difference in wire; it basically is what it is, which I have heard other people mentioning as well. The outlet thing is different, because there is more physical detail to how they are mechanically built, what shape the terminals are, how easy it is to get wires held in well and tightened enough, etc.

Thanks re the outlet selection.
Regarding the wire, it's just a matter of not overpaying. Seems like online, at least at that one link provided, is cheapest (as always), Home Depot is a bit more expensive (assuming they actually have stock), but my electrician mentioned preferring Lowes which looks waaay more expensive.

 

[telsaatl]

My electrician said he can use 8/3 copper for a 50 amp circuit instead of 6 gauge wire .. is it ok ??

 

[jcanoe]

Yes if they use 8 gauge THWN copper wire rated for 75C or 8 gauge THHN copper wire rated for 90C. No if they use NM-B (Romex). If using NM-B wire, for a 50A circuit, the minimum is 6 gauge. Using THWN or THHN wire might require that the wire be installed in conduit.

Cerrowire Resources - Ampacity Charts

 

[Sophias_dad]

8 gauge THHN copper wire rated for 90C

I don't think that's allowed. Neither the HPWC nor most residential circuit breakers have 90C rated lugs.

 

[sleepydoc]

Well... Sure, whatever you say. I put Leviton in my garage when I was building it a dozen years ago, and used one outlet to power first my RAV4EV, and then a succession of Teslas. NEVER had any problems with charging any of my cars. Now of my fourth, my wife's Model 3, Seems to me that all this concern is just a tad overblown. Of course, if you have problems, then, sure, buy a new outlet, but I doubt that one outlet over another is all that important. I got mine at The Home Depot, cheap. Oh, and I also used wire. Didn't check the maker. Never knew Tesla recommends certain outlets now, but they sure didn't when I built my garage.

You’re equating safety with the lack of a bad outcome. Here’s an example - I drink a pint of vodka and then drive home drunk but don’t crash or kill anyone. Was there a bad outcome? No. Was it safe? No.

There have been multiple reports of failures of the Leviton outlets. That doesn’t mean they all will fail, it just means they are more likely to fail and therefore by definition less safe.

If you are absolutely positive that you'll never want a 120V load(OR GFCI) in that shiny new subpanel, it looks like it technically NEED a neutral. GFCI breakers want their extra line connected to neutral rather than ground. Yes, some might argue they are interchangeable, but the electrical inspector won't accept any such arguments. If you don't plan on getting it inspected, you can totally ignore the 'needs a separate breaker' and just daisy-chain the HPWCs like the Gen2 did. It wouldn't be a code or instruction compliant installation, but it would work just fine.

Note also that if EMT conduit is in use, it can serve as a ground and you don't need a ground wire at all.

You don't need another UMC(and probably not an extra adapter, even), unless you plan to take a LOT of long trips in your tesla. Just leave the j1772 adapter in the car and the UMC plugged in and you should be fine.

First, if you’re running the wires to a sub panel, just run the neutral wire and do it right. It amazes me how many people spend the time and effort to run the wiring and then try to cut corners just to save a couple of bucks.

If you’re not going to run a neutral, then it’s not a sub panel, it’s just a junction box. According to code all garage outlets need GFCI protection. If you’re hardwiring to a wall connector then that doesn’t apply and the wall connector itself has built in GFCI. Either way, you can install a GFCI breaker at the main service panel from which you are running the wires.

Perhaps @Sophias_dad or @jcanoe can chime in but a service disconnect may be required in this circumstance.

 

[ATPMSD]

You have been given a lot of good advice on the 14-50 option, but allow me to suggest you go with the Tesla Wall Connector instead. The 14-50 option will run you about $50 for the plug, $100 for the GFIC breaker, $45 for the Tesla 14-50 adapter and then say another $35 for a cable management solution (e.g. for the MC and the cable), this totals $230. The Wall Connector is $500 plus a $10 breaker for a total of $510. You spent a ton of money on your car, so why not spend an extra $280 to do it right? The 14-50 option will max out at a 32A charge rate; the Wall Connector on a 50A circuit will charge at 40A and if installed on a 60A circuit will charge at 48A. And, as a bonus, you get to keep the MC in the car.

 

[sleepydoc]

You’re equating safety with the lack of a bad outcome. Here’s an example - I drink a pint of vodka and then drive home drunk but don’t crash or kill anyone. Was there a bad outcome? No. Was it safe? No.

There have been multiple reports of failures of the Leviton outlets. That doesn’t mean they all will fail, it just means they are more likely to fail and therefore by definition less safe.


First, if you’re running the wires to a sub panel, just run the neutral wire and do it right. It amazes me how many people spend the time and effort to run the wiring and then try to cut corners just to save a couple of bucks.

If you’re not going to run a neutral, then it’s not a sub panel, it’s just a junction box. According to code all garage outlets need GFCI protection. If you’re hardwiring to a wall connector then that doesn’t apply and the wall connector itself has built in GFCI. Either way, you can install a GFCI breaker at the main service panel from which you are running the wires.

Perhaps @Sophias_dad or @jcanoe can chime in but a service disconnect may be required in this circumstance.

I had a chance to look up the relevant 2020 NEC code - a disconnect it appears is required (see below - 625 is the section that describes requirements for EVs. Your municipality may or may not follow the 2020 code, however.

 

[ATPMSD]

I had a chance to look up the relevant 2020 NEC code - a disconnect it appears is required (see below - 625 is the section that describes requirements for EVs. Your municipality may or may not follow the 2020 code, however.

View attachment 735816

Does not apply. Our 240V circuits are split-phase, L1 to ground is 120V, L2 to ground is 120V. 240V comes from L1 to L2.

 

[sleepydoc]

Does not apply. Our 240V circuits are split-phase, L1 to ground is 120V, L2 to ground is 120V. 240V comes from L1 to L2.

Facepalm - totally missed that. Thanks!

 

[Rocky_H]

@sleepydoc Huh. I wanted to give your first section a "Love" response telling about how safety and lack of bad outcome are different things. So thank you for saying that.

But then I want to give a disagree for your section section of hogwash about neutral and subpanels.

But I can't split my vote, so I just didn't give a rating.

 

[sleepydoc]

@sleepydoc Huh. I wanted to give your first section a "Love" response telling about how safety and lack of bad outcome are different things. So thank you for saying that.

But then I want to give a disagree for your section section of hogwash about neutral and subpanels.

But I can't split my vote, so I just didn't give a rating.

I'll have to split my replies in the future!

How is the section on sub panels hogwash?