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14-50 nema materials checklist

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
7,331
9,028
Boise, ID
I'll have to split my replies in the future! :p
You sure you want to? Mixed bag there--you would get both the love and the disagree. ;)
How is the section on sub panels hogwash?
Like so:
First, if you’re running the wires to a sub panel, just run the neutral wire and do it right.
It's supporting only 240V loads. Not using a neutral IS doing it right.
It amazes me how many people spend the time and effort to run the wiring and then try to cut corners just to save a couple of bucks.
I hate this bull$#it where people tell others to spend extra money to do extra unnecessary things, and then sling the insult that not wasting that money is "cutting corners". Stop it.
If you’re not going to run a neutral, then it’s not a sub panel, it’s just a junction box.
Eh? I would love to hear your explanation of this one. The main distinction I am aware of here is that a junction box can be just an empty box--no breakers. It's an accessible place for making splices and wire junctions, like with Polaris connectors. A subpanel has power bus bars with breakers. I don't think the presence or absence of a neutral has any relevance to whether it is a subpanel or junction box.
According to code all garage outlets need GFCI protection. If you’re hardwiring to a wall connector then that doesn’t apply and the wall connector itself has built in GFCI. Either way, you can install a GFCI breaker at the main service panel from which you are running the wires.
I think that's correct. You can GFCI breaker this at the main panel, right?
 
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ATPMSD

Member
Mar 12, 2021
617
580
Atlanta, GA
It's supporting only 240V loads. Not using a neutral IS doing it right.

Technically correct, of course, but this limits future options. We know that running wire is often the most expensive part and discovering you need / want a neutral later would be bad news. I suggest if someone is willing to go to the expense of installing a subpanel that running a neutral is a small price to pay to future proof.
 
Technically correct, of course, but this limits future options. We know that running wire is often the most expensive part and discovering you need / want a neutral later would be bad news. I suggest if someone is willing to go to the expense of installing a subpanel that running a neutral is a small price to pay to future proof.
I am only running wire to install outlet for now, and possibly switch to one or two HPWC in the future. I have plenty of other 110v outlets in the garage, I do not need additional 110v outlets there, that is not why I'm running the wire; again only doing it for the upcoming Tesla. I require 120 feet of wire, per terminal. At the very cheapest it's about $1.10 per foot. I see little reason to spend an extra, let's call it $150, for something that will just lay dormantly in the wall and likely never ever see the light of day for any kind of use.

That said, if someone can give me a reason what I would possibly use this neutral wire for in the future, I am happy to hear you out.
 
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ATPMSD

Member
Mar 12, 2021
617
580
Atlanta, GA
I am only running wire to install outlet for now, and possibly switch to one or two HPWC in the future. I have plenty of other 110v outlets in the garage, I do not need additional 110v outlets there, that is not why I'm running the wire; again only doing it for the upcoming Tesla. I require 120 feet of wire, per terminal. At the very cheapest it's about $1.10 per foot. I see little reason to spend an extra, let's call it $150, for something that will just lay dormantly in the wall and likely never ever see the light of day for any kind of use.

That said, if someone can give me a reason what I would possibly use this neutral wire for in the future, I am happy to hear you out.

Sounds like your thought it out! In your case the neutral does sound like a waste of money.

Good luck!
 

jcanoe

Active Member
Oct 2, 2020
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Maryland

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
7,331
9,028
Boise, ID
One possibility is that in the future wireless EV charging, should you ever want to install this at home, would require the neutral connection.
No it won't. That makes no sense at all. Car charging, ESPECIALLY wirelessly, will want the HIGHEST voltage level you can get, because you are just trying to deliver energy quickly. The neutral is only used if you want to make it a 120V circuit. There would never be a reason to go DOWN to a 120V circuit for EV charging instead of a 240V circuit. So if someone already has a 240V circuit for regular wired charging, you certainly would never change that down to a 120V circuit for wireless charging, which is already less efficient.
 
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jcanoe

Active Member
Oct 2, 2020
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Maryland
No it won't. That makes no sense at all. Car charging, ESPECIALLY wirelessly, will want the HIGHEST voltage level you can get. The neutral is only used if you want to make it a 120V circuit. There would never be a reason to go DOWN to a 120V circuit for EV charging instead of a 240V circuit. So if someone already has a 240V circuit for regular wired charging, you certainly would never change that down to a 120V circuit for wireless charging, which is already less efficient.
SAE J2954 wireless power transfer (WPT) is a new standard. This technology incorporates Bluetooth-based communications between the vehicle and the charger, methods using triangulation sensors on the vehicle. It seem premature to state that this technology will not require a neutral connection. More here:

SAE J2954 - Wikipedia
 

ATPMSD

Member
Mar 12, 2021
617
580
Atlanta, GA
Wireless charging for a Tesla is available right now. It is an L2 system, so 240V is required. Why on earth would anyone want an L1 charging solution, they are way too sloooooow!

 

jcanoe

Active Member
Oct 2, 2020
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Maryland
Wireless charging for a Tesla is available right now. It is an L2 system, so 240V is required. Why on earth would anyone want an L1 charging solution, they are way too sloooooow!

Not for the charging; for the BT communications, triangulation and control. Also, SAE J2954 is several generations beyond the technology used in Plugless offerings.

More here: SAE J2954 - Wikipedia
 

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
7,331
9,028
Boise, ID
Not for the charging; for the BT communications, triangulation and control.
Many EVSEs, including the Tesla wall connector, convert to a small electronics voltage level to use wi-fi, Bluetooth, etc. on their circuit boards from the single incoming 240V AC line. I don't see that as any problem and would be a really annoying failure of the standard if this wireless system required dual voltage 240V and 120V. I am certain that will not be the case.

I tried to go read the standard to check, but you have to pay SAE $85 to get to read it. WTF?
 

jcanoe

Active Member
Oct 2, 2020
4,393
4,578
Maryland
Many EVSEs, including the Tesla wall connector, convert to a small electronics voltage level to use wi-fi, Bluetooth, etc. on their circuit boards from the single incoming 240V AC line. I don't see that as any problem and would be a really annoying failure of the standard if this wireless system required dual voltage 240V and 120V. I am certain that will not be the case.

I tried to go read the standard to check, but you have to pay SAE $85 to get to read it. WTF?
You can sign up to be on the WiTricity mailing list. Someone in WiTricity engineering and support might know what's what as far as the wiring requirements. I tried contacting WiTricity with this question once, never received a reply. Now that the product/technology is closer to shipping maybe WiTricity is willing to provide this information.
 

Sophias_dad

Active Member
Supporting Member
Jul 29, 2018
1,904
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Massachusetts
I do not understand your comment, it looks like you can have this installed today.

It seems like vaporware at the moment, but I'm not saying it'll never be a real product. If anyone had installed one in the past six months I'm sure I'd see something on the interwebs(not from the company!) about it.

Yes, I know it was a 'real' product at like 3kw five years ago.
 

jcanoe

Active Member
Oct 2, 2020
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Maryland
I do not understand your comment, it looks like you can have this installed today.

I don't think you can get plugless wireless charging in a Tesla Model 3 or Model Y. Anyway, this is about the future, not the present and not the past.

The SAE J2954 wireless power transfer (WPT) standard will support wireless charging at 3.6kW, 7.2kW and 11.5kW. There is also a higher power standard being worked for commercial vehicles charging at up to 500kW but that is another story.

The charging station will utilize 240V power. I contacted WiTricity to see if they could provide any information on the wiring required but they never responded. Now that the product/technology is close to shipping (Q4 2021 in South Korea in the Genesis GV60 EV SUV maybe there will be more information available re installation and wiring.
 

Sophias_dad

Active Member
Supporting Member
Jul 29, 2018
1,904
2,113
Massachusetts
I don't think you can get plugless wireless charging in a Tesla Model 3 or Model Y. Anyway, this is about the future, not the present and not the past.

The SAE J2954 wireless power transfer (WPT) standard will support wireless charging at 3.6kW, 7.2kW and 11.5kW. There is also a higher power standard being worked for commercial vehicles charging at up to 500kW but that is another story.

The charging station will utilize 240V power. I contacted WiTricity to see if they could provide any information on the wiring required but they never responded. Now that the product/technology is close to shipping (Q4 2021 in South Korea in the Genesis GV60 EV SUV maybe there will be more information available re installation and wiring.
Don't get me wrong, its a wonderful thing that there's a real standard to work toward. Sadly I wonder to myself about what sort of standard was(or wasn't) in place when the half-dozen or so different plug styles were defined for EV charging.
 

sleepydoc

Member
Aug 2, 2020
769
1,021
Minneapolis
You sure you want to? Mixed bag there--you would get both the love and the disagree. ;)
That's fine - if I'm wrong I'd rather people correct me.
Like so:

It's supporting only 240V loads. Not using a neutral IS doing it right.

I hate this bull$#it where people tell others to spend extra money to do extra unnecessary things, and then sling the insult that not wasting that money is "cutting corners". Stop it.
I'm fine with not wasting money. I'm not fine with cutting corners. If he's just running a branch circuit to his wall connector or 50A outlet then he can use a junction box or a disconnect. If he's looking to save money then a junction box or disconnect would be cheaper anyway. If he's going to the work and expense to pull wire and install a sub panel, he should do the whole job and pull the neutral as well.

Whether it's absolutely required depends on where he lives, but this is a residential install, not a commercial one and installing a sub panel without a neutral is inviting someone to come along later and use the ground as a neutral which can potentially create an unsafe situation.
Eh? I would love to hear your explanation of this one. The main distinction I am aware of here is that a junction box can be just an empty box--no breakers. It's an accessible place for making splices and wire junctions, like with Polaris connectors. A subpanel has power bus bars with breakers. I don't think the presence or absence of a neutral has any relevance to whether it is a subpanel or junction box.
Yes, a junction box is just a box to connect wires - see above. A disconnect is essentially an in-line breaker in a more accessible location.
I think that's correct. You can GFCI breaker this at the main panel, right?
No reason why not - the main downside is it's a pain to go all the way to the main panel to reset it if it trips, but from a safety perspective it's fine.
 

sleepydoc

Member
Aug 2, 2020
769
1,021
Minneapolis
You're doing it again. The "whole job" is only 240V circuits. Therefore the "whole job" is complete without a neutral.
Yes, but note what I said about future issues. I agree with you that it will be perfectly safe wired with 2 hots and a ground. It’s the potential future issues when someone goes to the subpanel to add another circuit.

Like I said, if cost is a concern then just run it as a branch circuit. If it’s not a concern then pull the 4th wire to have a ‘complete’ subpanel capable of 120 or 240 volt circuits. Spending more money on a sub panel and then trying to save money by not pulling a neutral makes no sense.
 

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