I suspect the outcome of the chargeback will not be in your favor, all things considered. May have been a better option to have leveraged the arbitration route
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14 Grand and no more range wtf
- Thread starter obin olson
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beatle
Active Member
What other product is similar to a "remanufactured" battery in that it performs identically to that of its heavily worn, but not quite failed counterpart? The idea of remanufacturing something is that the core of the part is still solid and performs to spec, but other worn out components are replaced. An engine may receive new piston rings, gaskets, a head skim, valve job, lifters, and sometimes other small components to remanufacture it. Some parts, on the other hand, are disposable as they cannot be rebuilt for a reasonable cost or to a reasonable spec. Brake pads, fuel filters, spark plugs, and a lot of electrical components are this way. If Tesla can't replace all the cells or modules to bring the pack to near-new capacity, then they can't actually remanufacture something. They could call it a "repaired" pack like Gruber Motors does. At least that is done for an honest cost, and Gruber is up front about the fact that this is a repair service, not a "remanufacturing" service.
Maybe Tesla's remanufactured packs are like retreaded tires? They technically work, but I don't know if I'd be confident to take a road trip with them.
Maybe Tesla's remanufactured packs are like retreaded tires? They technically work, but I don't know if I'd be confident to take a road trip with them.
Cheburashka
Active Member
Exactly. The OP got a used, repaired battery.
Remanufactured literally means it's manufactured into either something brand new or better than new.
I amount itself that's the problem. It's that Tesla didn't tell the OP that the price was for a capacity-matched pack. Had they told the OP, the OP would clearly have asked them for a price on a pack with a higher capacity, and they would have been better able to make an appropriate decision.
It's clear from the OP's post that they value a higher range, so would have been willing to spend more for a newer, higher-capacity pack.
Remanufactured means more than repaired, but it _definitely_ does not mean brand new or better than new.
EDIT: to be clearer, remanufactured should meet original specifications, but that doesn't mean it's going to perform like new, which is more likely to _exceed_ specifications.
"Within spec" is a phrase Tesla likes to use, but I hope the OP gets a refund and an opportunity to buy a more expensive, newer pack with more range.
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whitex
Well-Known Member
Tesla warranties batteries after they fall below 70% range (they used to say 80% but later "clarified" that they meant 70%), so you're saying if your battery falls to 60% original capacity they have to replace it with a 60% original capacity under warranty?
Gruber Motors put out a good video a while back. Seems the extra weight of the 100 kw pack affects the crash worthiness. So between suspension and that, Tesla will not install a 100 kw pack in a non 100 car. That said, I believe Jason Hughs has
OP -
I could be wrong, but almost certain I remember Tesla replacing batteries in older cars with comparable batteries. At $14,000, sounds pretty cheep. Thought I had heard that actual "NEW" batteries were about double that. So, if you got a replacement battery for $14,000, you paid a lot less, likely a they replaced the battery with a comparable replacement to make you whole again. Just like in legal situations, the law only makes you whole again, you don't get to benefit from advances and come out ahead on the the other end.
The other likely culprit is that the 2012 batteries were much difference than they were after making a notable chance in battery chemistry some time in 2013. So, there likely isn't a simple option of just replacing your battery with a brand new one. That would then be a retrofit to bring your car superior to what the car's model and specs dictate that it is. Such retrofits are VERY costly and would have required more than just installing a new battery. Tesla likely doesn't even make the 2012 version of the batteries any more.
Probably a lack of communication along the way and sorry to hear you thought the change would bring you a much higher range that what you used to have. Possibly Tesla didn't communicate that clearly with you, or in enough detail to inform you and make sure you understood that you were getting a "replacement" battery rather than a "new" battery.
We all know Tesla can suffer in terms of communication with customers. But, beyond that, this sounds like a typical repair to make your 9 year old car "whole again", as it was prior to the battery pack failure, which is pretty much normal course of business.
I had a 2013 with the same old battery. Try as I might to get Tesla to warranty the battery out because I could no longer live with the degradated range, I finally had to choose to sell that car and upgraded to a 2015 90kwh car. Cost me about the same (once I sold my car and paid for the new higher priced car) as it would have to retrofit my 2013 with an "upgraded" battery rather than just a "replacement" battery. Was well worth it as it also got me Tesla's all new more advanced hardware at the time, including auto pilot, backup sensors, etc.
Hope some of that helps.
I could be wrong, but almost certain I remember Tesla replacing batteries in older cars with comparable batteries. At $14,000, sounds pretty cheep. Thought I had heard that actual "NEW" batteries were about double that. So, if you got a replacement battery for $14,000, you paid a lot less, likely a they replaced the battery with a comparable replacement to make you whole again. Just like in legal situations, the law only makes you whole again, you don't get to benefit from advances and come out ahead on the the other end.
The other likely culprit is that the 2012 batteries were much difference than they were after making a notable chance in battery chemistry some time in 2013. So, there likely isn't a simple option of just replacing your battery with a brand new one. That would then be a retrofit to bring your car superior to what the car's model and specs dictate that it is. Such retrofits are VERY costly and would have required more than just installing a new battery. Tesla likely doesn't even make the 2012 version of the batteries any more.
Probably a lack of communication along the way and sorry to hear you thought the change would bring you a much higher range that what you used to have. Possibly Tesla didn't communicate that clearly with you, or in enough detail to inform you and make sure you understood that you were getting a "replacement" battery rather than a "new" battery.
We all know Tesla can suffer in terms of communication with customers. But, beyond that, this sounds like a typical repair to make your 9 year old car "whole again", as it was prior to the battery pack failure, which is pretty much normal course of business.
I had a 2013 with the same old battery. Try as I might to get Tesla to warranty the battery out because I could no longer live with the degradated range, I finally had to choose to sell that car and upgraded to a 2015 90kwh car. Cost me about the same (once I sold my car and paid for the new higher priced car) as it would have to retrofit my 2013 with an "upgraded" battery rather than just a "replacement" battery. Was well worth it as it also got me Tesla's all new more advanced hardware at the time, including auto pilot, backup sensors, etc.
Hope some of that helps.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
None of this is a valid concern. There is zero reason an 85kwh car from 2012 can’t take an 85kwh battery from 2015. A great many of them have.
Cheburashka
Active Member
Nah, in car parts speak, remanufactured should perform like new or better.
What you are talking about is refurbished or reconditioned.
Cheburashka
Active Member
This isn't remanufactured. It's refurbished at best.
Everyone should read about what remanufactured actually means - Remanufacturing - Wikipedia
Sorry but Tesla cannot redefine what remanufacturing is even if they can redefine what "full self-driving" means.
The reman definition can vary/can be interpreted many ways. Appears Tesla may opt to be quite liberal in their definition.
In some cases? Manufacturers leave it up to the customer to challenge. Risk management. They have actuaries on staff, that can determine % of persons that are likely to push back legally vs % that dont. Most fall into the former category.
Im simply stating facts, by the way. I wish the OP did receive a fully brand new spec level pack. He didnt. Hopefully the situation gets rectified in a very amicable manner. If so, its quite possible he may not be able to discuss the outcome..
In some cases? Manufacturers leave it up to the customer to challenge. Risk management. They have actuaries on staff, that can determine % of persons that are likely to push back legally vs % that dont. Most fall into the former category.
Im simply stating facts, by the way. I wish the OP did receive a fully brand new spec level pack. He didnt. Hopefully the situation gets rectified in a very amicable manner. If so, its quite possible he may not be able to discuss the outcome..
If you (as in anyone) can define what "remanufacturing" means (re: using Wikipedia as your frame of reference) then so can Tesla. We debating semantics here...
The real issue is that Tesla is all over the place with battery replacements, with no consistency, nor transparency. On under warranty cars they will do anything from replacing with a repaired pack with same capacity, to a new pack and upgrade (eg 85 to 90). There is no rhyme or reason. In this case, the OP was under the impression that it was a remanufactured pack. At best, he got a repaired pack. Odds are, he could've sent his car to Gruber, and they would've 'repaired' the pack for a lot less than $14k. Or for $14k, he could've gotten a newer (maybe 90kw) pack from Jason Hughes.
Until Tesla comes up with a uniform policy on both in warranty and out of warranty pack replacement / upgrade, these situations are going to come up. Since SCs will not fix to component level, the only two options are a 'repaired' pack or a brand new (and no one really can guarantee Tesla is going to ship a real brand new pack). I would love to see the description of the part that what is installed on his invoice. While it is a game of semantics, I think for the vast majority of the automotive industry, they would take remanufactured to mean repaired or restored to like new condition, with like new performance. A pack with a loss of 17% capacity is not like new. Anything else is basically a tested used pack. OP could've bought one from a wrecked car and made out better.
I love my Tesla, but I'm admittedly concerned what happens if / when I end up in the OPs position. Now that 2012 -2013 cars are coming off warranty, Tesla really has to decide, are they going to support out of warranty vehicles. They can't be shooting from the hip. I'd rather know upfront, it's a $22k ding if I toast a pack, then wonder what I'm going to get, and what condition it is.
As for the contested charge, The OP will probably lose that argument (plus Tesla will probably refuse to work on the car while it's being argued). Hopefully cooler heads at Tesla will see the bad situation for what it is and offer to meet the OP halfway and replace with a real new pack. To my mind of thinking, the SC should've explained all to the OP before installing the pack
Until Tesla comes up with a uniform policy on both in warranty and out of warranty pack replacement / upgrade, these situations are going to come up. Since SCs will not fix to component level, the only two options are a 'repaired' pack or a brand new (and no one really can guarantee Tesla is going to ship a real brand new pack). I would love to see the description of the part that what is installed on his invoice. While it is a game of semantics, I think for the vast majority of the automotive industry, they would take remanufactured to mean repaired or restored to like new condition, with like new performance. A pack with a loss of 17% capacity is not like new. Anything else is basically a tested used pack. OP could've bought one from a wrecked car and made out better.
I love my Tesla, but I'm admittedly concerned what happens if / when I end up in the OPs position. Now that 2012 -2013 cars are coming off warranty, Tesla really has to decide, are they going to support out of warranty vehicles. They can't be shooting from the hip. I'd rather know upfront, it's a $22k ding if I toast a pack, then wonder what I'm going to get, and what condition it is.
As for the contested charge, The OP will probably lose that argument (plus Tesla will probably refuse to work on the car while it's being argued). Hopefully cooler heads at Tesla will see the bad situation for what it is and offer to meet the OP halfway and replace with a real new pack. To my mind of thinking, the SC should've explained all to the OP before installing the pack
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beatle
Active Member
If you blow your engine and source a remanufactured one, would you accept one that runs but has low compression?
None of this is a valid concern. There is zero reason an 85kwh car from 2012 can’t take an 85kwh battery from 2015. A great many of them have.
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Sounds like OP bought a used or refurbished battery at a significantly discounted price ($14K vs $22K). If you wanted one with better range, then would have had to pony up for a NEW battery, but, chose the cheaper option and basically got a replacement of what he/she had, except the purchased one works whereas the previous one didn't. You don't get things for nothing. Just like all the people who thought they were going to sneak in an order for a new Tesla at the pre-refresh price and hope that Tesla would given them the new $10,000 more expensive car instead. Didn't happen. Take the cheaper option, get the cheaper result. Point is, OP now has a functional battery. That cost is $14K. Want a new one instead, spend the $22K.
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