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14 Hours to cross 800Km with SR+...[complaint about range in winter]

camalaio

Active Member
May 28, 2019
1,483
2,188
Vernon, BC, Canada
@camalaio , note that in France, highways have a 130km/h limit (as far as I know) so the OP was not being illegal. Also, even in winter, in many occasions the highways are clear, dry asphalt so you don't need to reduce your speed for security. I agree that on snow or ice 130km/h would be a bit fast for most people.

80mph interstates also exist (129km/h), my main point was in regard to the 150km/h-160km/h suggestion
 
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mrgoogle

Member
Dec 29, 2019
100
67
Eindhoven
pay 50-60k euros for a car, only to get told you need to drive way way below the speed limit. Lol
Say what you want, it’s still a navigational error which could also have happened with the LR. If you miss your exit twice or three times, it’s slowing you down just as much.

Put in a 2000km trip with the 2019 long range that has 19inch vs a 2019 SR+

Result will be the SR+ has more stops but is almost as fast, hence the chargesped in km/h is faster then the LR due to higher efficiency.

I have done 1000km trips through Germany, no problem driving 150-220 km/h aswell, only meant supercharging was faster.
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
3,465
1,879
QLD, Australia
The error is using only amps as both a power and energy measure.
  • Energy (kWh) : A quantity, e.g. like gallons of gasoline.
  • Power (kW): A rate of energy usage. Much like horsepower.
You get power by multiplying voltage and amperage. With power, you multiply the average power by time to get energy (that's why the "h" is there).

A typical destination "non-Tesla" charger in North America (J1772 plug) is a 30A station, with the voltage being either 208V (commercial electricity) or 240V (residential). Even though both are 30A, you get more power out of a residential one (7200W or 7.2kW in theory) versus the common commercial setups (6240W or 6.24kW) simply because the voltage is different. This means if you go by the charging rate "miles per hour" on screen, they will actually vary between these two setups as well since their power is different.

That is further why Superchargers need less amperage than you might expect. They're directly feeding in around 350-403V DC, thus need less amperage for equivalent powers.



Again, life is a lot more complicated than that.

At 240Wh/km, I'm arriving at a much lower SoC (if I arrive at all due to the higher consumption?). At a Supercharger this would mean faster charging, but not at a 50kW CCS/CHAdeMO station since they'd be current limited instead of voltage limited. At low SoC I've seen something like 32kW net into the pack, but could still be lower. But notably, that's beyond your 36kW threshold.

Also, again, this relies on ludicrous amounts of planning, ideal charger placement, etc. That's not really how roads and population centers work, and is fair beyond a reasonable expectation of using a vehicle. Remember the context of this thread: frustration.

Getting optimal charging times is already a chore on trips, and travel at much greater than 120km/h is highly illegal and unsafe pretty much everywhere... especially in winter. Restating, high speed travel should not be treated as a general benefit for time-efficient road trips. There are many problems with that when applied to almost all real-world routes.

i dont know what you are talking about. you are talking about superchargers, not 50kw but the above was about.
 

Uncle Paul

Well-Known Member
Nov 1, 2013
6,299
7,606
Canyon Lake,CA
Owners can drive as fast as they feel comfortable, but that does not change the fact that high speed driving will deplete a battery faster than driving slower. Same with ICE cars. I believe that a Bugatti Veyron can deplete it's fuel supply in less than 15 Minutes driving at max speeds.
 

Stavanger

Member
Jul 6, 2020
62
89
Stavanger, Norway
Owners can drive as fast as they feel comfortable, but that does not change the fact that high speed driving will deplete a battery faster than driving slower. Same with ICE cars. I believe that a Bugatti Veyron can deplete it's fuel supply in less than 15 Minutes driving at max speeds.

The difference is that you can drive 150km/hour with a gas car for maybe 3-4 hours, then take 5 minutes to re-fuel.
With a Tesla you can drive 150km/hour for 1-2 hours then you need to stop and charge for an hour before its possible to drive for another 1-2 hours.
 

Stavanger

Member
Jul 6, 2020
62
89
Stavanger, Norway
not uncommon in europe to drive a bit over the speedlimit. certainly 150 in france wont get you in trouble. hell even 140ish is the norm in the uk where the limit is 110.

This is so true.
If the speed limit is 130 and you drive 130 you will have a lot people passing you.
Its very standard to drive 10-20% above the speed limit, especially on the freeway.
In Sweden the speed limit is between 110-120 and its totally fine to drive at 130-150 there too, you wont get in any trouble for it. Never any laser controls on the freeway anyway.
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
3,465
1,879
QLD, Australia
This is so true.
If the speed limit is 130 and you drive 130 you will have a lot people passing you.
Its very standard to drive 10-20% above the speed limit, especially on the freeway.
In Sweden the speed limit is between 110-120 and its totally fine to drive at 130-150 there too, you wont get in any trouble for it. Never any laser controls on the freeway anyway.

yeah i heard norway is a bit like australia though with heavily enforced speed limits.
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
3,465
1,879
QLD, Australia
The difference is that you can drive 150km/hour with a gas car for maybe 3-4 hours, then take 5 minutes to re-fuel.
With a Tesla you can drive 150km/hour for 1-2 hours then you need to stop and charge for an hour before its possible to drive for another 1-2 hours.

driving 150km/hr as opposed to lets say 100km means you also arrive 50% earlier which means your overall traveling speed is still higher UNTIL you charge slower than you consume electricity.

Also driving faster and arriving with an emptier battery doesnt make much difference anyway. I.e. charging from 25% to 85% will take similar time compared to 5% to 85% because you charge a lot faster on the bottom end.
 

Stavanger

Member
Jul 6, 2020
62
89
Stavanger, Norway
driving 150km/hr as opposed to lets say 100km means you also arrive 50% earlier which means your overall traveling speed is still higher UNTIL you charge slower than you consume electricity.

Also driving faster and arriving with an emptier battery doesnt make much difference anyway. I.e. charging from 25% to 85% will take similar time compared to 5% to 85% because you charge a lot faster on the bottom end.


Yes but driving at 100km/hour isnt an option really if the speed limit is 130 for example, that would actually be illegal.
The problem is that charging stations arent located exactly where you need them, they are generally only located every 150kms or so so actually its very common to not be able to drive down to 5% or something, you might have to stop and charge when you are already at 60% and then charge to 90% to get to the next station.

So the problem is very often, in the real world that you need to stop at every single station (every 150kms) and charge for 30-60 minutes and then get to the next one and then sometimes you can skip one.. but not often. So actually the driving time almost doubles when you are driving like this
 

Candleflame

Active Member
Mar 9, 2015
3,465
1,879
QLD, Australia
Yes but driving at 100km/hour isnt an option really if the speed limit is 130 for example, that would actually be illegal.
The problem is that charging stations arent located exactly where you need them, they are generally only located every 150kms or so so actually its very common to not be able to drive down to 5% or something, you might have to stop and charge when you are already at 60% and then charge to 90% to get to the next station.

So the problem is very often, in the real world that you need to stop at every single station (every 150kms) and charge for 30-60 minutes and then get to the next one and then sometimes you can skip one.. but not often. So actually the driving time almost doubles when you are driving like this

i dont have that problem here. XD We do have 50kw chargers every 150km or so but they are often 5-10min drive away from our highway so you try to skip them until you get one which is close to the highway. I arrive with 5% all the time.
 

user212_nr

Active Member
Aug 26, 2019
1,407
875
US
To all people who are noobs: The SR+ is almost as fast as the LR on roadtrips. (Except for the chinese SR+ with LFP battery, which had alot of issues and charges very slow!)

I have done multiple roadtrips 1000km+ within 11hours incl. Charging and was even going to drive 2700km in 2 days from NL to Portugal, only got cancelled because of corona.

Exactly. I wouldn't say its just noobs though, most on this forum are enthusiasts and bought the LR and Performance versions. I've done the calculations on ABRP and it only seems to come out to a few hours difference. Even with a few long trips, the LR can't be viewed as a "necessity".

Now if the cars had 600 miles range instead of 300, that would really shave time off your trip.
 

KenC

Active Member
Sep 4, 2018
3,861
3,573
Maine
The difference is that you can drive 150km/hour with a gas car for maybe 3-4 hours, then take 5 minutes to re-fuel.
With a Tesla you can drive 150km/hour for 1-2 hours then you need to stop and charge for an hour before its possible to drive for another 1-2 hours.
Trip times depend upon which model Tesla, how fast your chargers are, and how well they are spaced. Having said that, for long distance travel, the SR and SR+ are highly unsuited for frequent long trips. Sure, you can do them, but it won't be fast or convenient.

However, if you were to take a LR and try a cross US trip, 2856 miles from Manhattan, NY to Manhattan Beach, CA, you'd be surprised that your statement doesn't hold true at all. If you allow for 150km/h travel, I get a total trip time of 42h44min, 34h20m of driving and 8h24m of charging. That's at an average road speed of 83mph, or 134km/h. There are 28 stops, so an average charge time of 18mins. The longest charge stop is 32mins, and only twice do you need to even charge for more than 30mins. You'd be hard pressed to do this trip meaningfully faster in an ICE.

Nowhere do you stop "for an hour" to charge.

Sure, an ICE can fill up faster, but I find myself waiting at gas pumps all the time, while on a trip; and outside of California, waiting for a SC is pretty uncommon.

The other thing is you're trying to apply ICE refueling behavior to BEVs. That's nonsensical. Why compare ICE refueling behavior to BEV? BEVs require a completely different strategy.

If you think about it, for OPTIMUM trip times, you have a little more than half a battery of range. At 150km/h, you are going to use 380Wh/mile, in a LR-AWD, giving you a practical distance of a little more than 100miles between SC. That takes about 18mins to charge at a v2 SC, faster if it were v3.
by default 2021-01-13 at 1.29.30 PM.jpg


Yes but driving at 100km/hour isnt an option really if the speed limit is 130 for example, that would actually be illegal.
The problem is that charging stations arent located exactly where you need them, they are generally only located every 150kms or so so actually its very common to not be able to drive down to 5% or something, you might have to stop and charge when you are already at 60% and then charge to 90% to get to the next station.

So the problem is very often, in the real world that you need to stop at every single station (every 150kms) and charge for 30-60 minutes and then get to the next one and then sometimes you can skip one.. but not often. So actually the driving time almost doubles when you are driving like this
In general, it's faster to drive faster in a Tesla for shorter trip times, as long as you're using Superchargers. If you are using slower 50kW DCFC, then your trip times will be slower if you drive faster.

The problem I've found is that the SC spacing seems optimized for LR, and very poor for SR or SR+, which is not surprising. For LR, as I wrote above, the optimum spacing should be about 100 miles, or 160km. For a SR+, the optimum spacing is much much less, that's why the SC spacing doesn't work well.

For example, if I were to try the same trip from Manhattan to Manhattan Beach at 150km/h, you'd get a result of 51h33min, with 37h or driving and 14h33m of charging. The distance traveled would be longer, 2925miles, since you have to take a different route to get the shorter spacing between SC. It's clear that long distance travel in a SR+ is significantly more compromised than in a LR. Total trip time is 20% longer. Driving time is 8% longer, since a couple legs are speed limited to 70mph. And charge time is 73% longer, since you have a smaller battery that needs to be filled to a higher SOC. Not optimal.

People shouldn't buy the wrong vehicle for their driving habits and then complain when they find it doesn't meet their expectations.
by default 2021-01-13 at 1.45.35 PM.jpg
 

alexgr

Active Member
Aug 13, 2019
1,186
1,201
42
It is rather unsurprising that going over 80 mph with 4 people in the car in somewhat cold weather leads to a significant range loss. I wonder is you just go 110 km/h instead 130 km/h, how much faster would you reach your destination. For long range travel consider a Long Range EV.
 
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alexgr

Active Member
Aug 13, 2019
1,186
1,201
42
Yes but driving at 100km/hour isnt an option really if the speed limit is 130 for example, that would actually be illegal.

May I please call it bull$hit. I has been driving in Europe for years. There is no instance driving 100 km/h is illegal because it is too slow.
 
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alexgr

Active Member
Aug 13, 2019
1,186
1,201
42
pay 50-60k euros for a car, only to get told you need to drive way way below the speed limit. Lol

Yes it is a cheap car, you could get a Taycan if you want to brag about the cost. Look, the LR Tesla has longer range and this is why I've got the LR M3 to be able to comfortably travel long distance. I have traveled over 3000 miles (4800 km) last winter with temperatures as low as 0F (-18 C) and I have never had an issue traveling at least 150 miles (240 km) between charges charging typically 20%-to-80%. You saved on your car, so please be considerate when traveling long distance. When I traveled in my Nissan Versa (Note) at 85 mph its consumption was about the same as my Acura MDX at the same speed. I haven't complained that Nissan sucks, I knew that it suck at doing what it is not built for.
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
11,132
6,267
We can count on 150Km maximum when on the highway (130Km/h)
That works out to 81mph, so given the cold (which makes the air more dense and increases drag even further), I would say the excessive speed was the problem, especially given you didn't have supercharging (which would have made up for it).

When you have slower chargers, it may actually be faster to drive a slower speed, especially if your accessory loads are low (and it might allow to you skip a stop).

And I'm struggling to understand WHY Tesla did not create a "Winter mode" in addition of the "Comfort mode" (limiting acceleration). Maybe such a winter mode could avoid to heat the battery, and improve mileage when at cold temperatures (<10°c), with similar effect on performance than comfort mode.
I don't think not heating the battery would have increased range, as batteries have less apparent capacity when they are at lower temperatures. Instead it may result in the opposite (even less range).
 
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Stavanger

Member
Jul 6, 2020
62
89
Stavanger, Norway
May I please call it bull$hit. I has been driving in Europe for years. There is no instance driving 100 km/h is illegal because it is too slow.

Swedish law for example:
3 kap. 16 § trafikförordningen (1998:1276): ”En förare får inte utan giltigt skäl köra med överdrivet låg hastighet, plötsligt bromsa eller på något annat sätt hindra andra förares körning.”

Section 16 of the Traffic Ordinance (1998: 1276): "A driver may not, without a valid reason, drive at excessively low speeds, suddenly brake or in any other way obstruct other drivers' driving."

Or UK
Driving too slowly could land you huge fines in the UK - Here's what you need to know
 

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