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18650 Panasonic Cell Agreement

Will 2018 Tesla X/S have 2170 cells?

  • Yes

    Votes: 14 26.9%
  • No

    Votes: 12 23.1%
  • 2018-1/2 will

    Votes: 12 23.1%
  • 2019 for 2170s

    Votes: 14 26.9%
  • 2170s in 2170

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    52
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mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
20,448
83,153
Michigan
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So, will Tesla refresh the S/X with 2170 cells instead? Or maintain stability with the purchase of more 18650s?

I think the plan was to refresh (e.g. the 130 kWh Model S or X testing rumor last summer), and the timing very well fits, but given the Gigafactory bottle neck with Model 3 ramp-up, I find it likely Tesla is forced to delay such plans. Later in 2018 could still be possible, of course...
 
I don't think 2018 is reasonable Tesla needs those batteries for the model 3, Elon stated that they are having battery bottle necks with production now thus no 2170 till 2019 or 2020 id guess.

OTOH once that bottle neck is solved, Gigafactory might well be pumping out batteries faster than Fremont is pumping out Model 3s, which might mean 21-70s for Model S/Xs...

All depends on how fast and well the bottle neck really is solved.
 
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Good points,
Depending on commonality of the module production, the 3 bottle neck may not impact S/X production changes.
Overly optimistic thought: Tesla's parallel development of an S/X module line allowed them to overhaul the 3 lines so quickly.
More realistic thought: Tesla's overhaul of the 3 line allowed/ will allow them to improve the S/X 2170 pack line more rapidly.
 
My best WAG had always been that Tesla will use the 2170 along with an interior refresh/HUD and single screen instead of the instrument cluster as a demand lever and cost reducer as the Fed tax credits phase out. They could save as much as $5000 per car if the savings truly is 30% from the gigafactory. Tesla would leverage economies of scale with tier one suppliers from the model 3 program and some of the new things in the 3 like the HVAC system. This savings combined with added value of the interior refresh would offset lowering the price to offset the loss of Fed tax credits. Now things have changed drastically lately with Bottlenecks and fed tax credit going away this year with the new tax plan.

The model 3 is already competitive as seems to have been designed and priced with no tax breaks required.

My original time line was end of 2018 as that was when tax credits would be phased out, but now I don't know. My hope is that they can accelerate that process to help boost sales as tax credits are cut off.

As far as 130KWh pack, I don't know how it fits unless battery cell/pack density is 30% more then the 18650. The taller cells can be made to fit, but they just don't have the space unless the cells/pack density had gone to significantly. Maybe the roadster gives an indication to that with it's outrageously large 200KWh pack. Are those cells ready today? Next year? Are they even different then the model 3? A lot of questions, but few real answers. 30% more range would be over 400+ miles for S/X, which would be very compelling. Do they phase out 75KWh completely? Do they use model 3 motors? Or a bigger version for the rear? Maybe the same used on the roadster? What does the roadster use, is it any different or just geared differently. 250/MPh would dictate that there is some difference.
 
Good points,
Depending on commonality of the module production, the 3 bottle neck may not impact S/X production changes.
Overly optimistic thought: Tesla's parallel development of an S/X module line allowed them to overhaul the 3 lines so quickly.
More realistic thought: Tesla's overhaul of the 3 line allowed/ will allow them to improve the S/X 2170 pack line more rapidly.
OTOH once that bottle neck is solved, Gigafactory might well be pumping out batteries faster than Fremont is pumping out Model 3s, which might mean 21-70s for Model S/Xs...

All depends on how fast and well the bottle neck really is solved.

Ya I just don't see it soon, last we heard Tesla had 400,000 reservations I'm sure its more now thats quite a few packs they need to produce. Looking at the 100 pack announcement 16 months ago as an example they said they would roll out battery upgrades for p90d cars but the actual date kept getting pushed back until just 2 days ago I finally got the first upgrade that we know of. This was all due to production bottlenecks and issues, I've gathered from reading the forums over that period. I specifically recall reports of 100s being delivered with DOA batteries that had to be replaced or repaired before the buyer could take delivery. Anyways they JUST got the 100 line were they want it and can offer these battery upgrades. In-fact from reading the thread below it seems they have optimized the 100 pack so much that they are now using the same 100 pack design just with empty modules to build the new smaller packs obviously all in an effort to streamline production, and I don't see them giving up that new design so soon after getting it right.
 
Ya I just don't see it soon, last we heard Tesla had 400,000 reservations I'm sure its more now thats quite a few packs they need to produce. Looking at the 100 pack announcement 16 months ago as an example they said they would roll out battery upgrades for p90d cars but the actual date kept getting pushed back until just 2 days ago I finally got the first upgrade that we know of. This was all due to production bottlenecks and issues, I've gathered from reading the forums over that period. I specifically recall reports of 100s being delivered with DOA batteries that had to be replaced or repaired before the buyer could take delivery. Anyways they JUST got the 100 line were they want it and can offer these battery upgrades. In-fact from reading the thread below it seems they have optimized the 100 pack so much that they are now using the same 100 pack design just with empty modules to build the new smaller packs obviously all in an effort to streamline production, and I don't see them giving up that new design so soon after getting it right.
Congrats on the upgrade!
 
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A post in another thread got me thinking, when does Tesla's original purchase agreement with Panasonic for 18650 cells conclude?
From: Panasonic to Supply Tesla With 2 Billion Lithium-Ion Battery Cells From 2014 to 2017 | Inside EVs
The 2 billion cells should be used up fairly soon. So, will Tesla refresh the S/X with 2170 cells instead? Or maintain stability with the purchase of more 18650s?
OTOH once that bottle neck is solved, Gigafactory might well be pumping out batteries faster than Fremont is pumping out Model 3s, which might mean 21-70s for Model S/Xs...

All depends on how fast and well the bottle neck really is solved.
I don't think 2018 is reasonable Tesla needs those batteries for the model 3, Elon stated that they are having battery bottle necks with production now thus no 2170 till 2019 or 2020 id guess.

Has the recent inventory drawdown to record lows changed your opinions on Model S/X refresh? Why drawdown the inventory to zero if a refresh is not around the corner?

@mongo How many S/X units do 2 billion cells approximate? What do you mean by "fairly soon?"
 
At which point is Tesla better off cornering the market on 18650s with depreciated equipment, or is the savings inherent in 2170s worth the switch?

Why would you want to corner the market in a tech that is not a good fit for cars? The whole point of the 2170 is that its the proper format for cars. I think there is this idea that Tesla owes something to Panasonic and should continue to buy cells but this deal was made with full knowledge that the two companies would transition to 2170. I have no idea what Panasonic's 18650 business is aside from Tesla or how much of the equipment can be converted for 2170, but it really doesn't matter because Panasonic made the deal knowing what the end result was going to be. The 2170 cells clearly perform better from looking at the model 3 and what they have store for us with the Semi and Roadster. I cant imagine they wouldnt want to switch as soon as its reasonably able to. A big limiter is the ramp of cell and pack production. They might need to extend the contract to allow time for that alone, or the s-curve could kick in and and the change could come quicker. The point is that none of this is a surprise to Tesla or Panasonic. This would have been discussed before the Gigafactory was conceived and broke ground. Why would Panasonic want to give up its current contract unless its Gigafactory deal is much better for both. The savings from shipping of these extremely dense cells alone must make the 2170 that much cheaper for the partners.

I was thinking a bit about the IP and how Tesla gives out the patents. This is nice and all but its fairly meaninglessness as the tech is not all that super complicated and not hard for competitors to just take it apart and copy it. The real tech and IP is the manufacturing systems. The machine that makes the machine and really the software and machine learning that makes it all go. Ghromann and Tesla's other automation acquisitions are what this company is truly becoming. Its not a car company and its not a energy company and its not even a software company, though software is a huge part of what they do. Tesla is becoming a highly automated factory design and implementation company that currently is focused on the Auto and Energy industries. This is where all their secret sauce lies and its the only way to really do it. The old school autos will react at some point and they can make a lot of cars really well and they can do it at a massive loss for a very long time before they run out of cash. Tesla must be do the same thing but profitably and their cars must be better because they are trying to take market share. Tesla is actually in a much better position because when they take share, someone loses it, when GM takes share with its EVs, its going to be from other GM models. Models that used to be profitable before they had to split all their resources to build EVs. They are going to have to sell 4 ICEv just to make up for the loss on each EV. They are actually better off having Tesla take their market share, then lose it to themselves with negative margin cars. They truly are in bad shape and I have never seen anything that makes me think they can adapt fast enough. They can adapt, it only took about 20+ years to become competitive with Toyota after they ate their lunch in the 70s. And they still arnt really competitive, they just arnt losing as badly.
 
At which point is Tesla better off cornering the market on 18650s with depreciated equipment, or is the savings inherent in 2170s worth the switch?

My understanding is that form factor switch is not needed in order to bring production to the Gigafactory and incorporate improved battery tech at the cell level.

I’d be interested in hearing the opposing argument.
 
Why would you want to corner the market in a tech that is not a good fit for cars? The whole point of the 2170 is that its the proper format for cars. I think there is this idea that Tesla owes something to Panasonic and should continue to buy cells but this deal was made with full knowledge that the two companies would transition to 2170. I have no idea what Panasonic's 18650 business is aside from Tesla or how much of the equipment can be converted for 2170, but it really doesn't matter because Panasonic made the deal knowing what the end result was going to be. The 2170 cells clearly perform better from looking at the model 3 and what they have store for us with the Semi and Roadster. I cant imagine they wouldnt want to switch as soon as its reasonably able to. A big limiter is the ramp of cell and pack production. They might need to extend the contract to allow time for that alone, or the s-curve could kick in and and the change could come quicker. The point is that none of this is a surprise to Tesla or Panasonic. This would have been discussed before the Gigafactory was conceived and broke ground. Why would Panasonic want to give up its current contract unless its Gigafactory deal is much better for both. The savings from shipping of these extremely dense cells alone must make the 2170 that much cheaper for the partners.

I was thinking a bit about the IP and how Tesla gives out the patents. This is nice and all but its fairly meaninglessness as the tech is not all that super complicated and not hard for competitors to just take it apart and copy it. The real tech and IP is the manufacturing systems. The machine that makes the machine and really the software and machine learning that makes it all go. Ghromann and Tesla's other automation acquisitions are what this company is truly becoming. Its not a car company and its not a energy company and its not even a software company, though software is a huge part of what they do. Tesla is becoming a highly automated factory design and implementation company that currently is focused on the Auto and Energy industries. This is where all their secret sauce lies and its the only way to really do it. The old school autos will react at some point and they can make a lot of cars really well and they can do it at a massive loss for a very long time before they run out of cash. Tesla must be do the same thing but profitably and their cars must be better because they are trying to take market share. Tesla is actually in a much better position because when they take share, someone loses it, when GM takes share with its EVs, its going to be from other GM models. Models that used to be profitable before they had to split all their resources to build EVs. They are going to have to sell 4 ICEv just to make up for the loss on each EV. They are actually better off having Tesla take their market share, then lose it to themselves with negative margin cars. They truly are in bad shape and I have never seen anything that makes me think they can adapt fast enough. They can adapt, it only took about 20+ years to become competitive with Toyota after they ate their lunch in the 70s. And they still arnt really competitive, they just arnt losing as badly.

I'm thinking of two main factors:
First is keeping Panasonic's capacity tied up. If Tesla switches S/X to 2170, would Panasonic replace the existing lines, or would they be used by a competing EV? The accelerate EV side of things would like the latter, but the business side may prefer the former.
Second is that 2170 is a better choice when starting from scratch and needing to create all infrastructure. With current manufacturing and production in place, is the current less-optimal cell better from a total cost POV than creating additional/ new cap-ex equipment to use the optimal cell?
It may be better to use 18650 untill either the equipment wears out or AD improvements bring the incremental switching cost down.
 
I'm thinking of two main factors:
First is keeping Panasonic's capacity tied up. If Tesla switches S/X to 2170, would Panasonic replace the existing lines, or would they be used by a competing EV? The accelerate EV side of things would like the latter, but the business side may prefer the former.
Second is that 2170 is a better choice when starting from scratch and needing to create all infrastructure. With current manufacturing and production in place, is the current less-optimal cell better from a total cost POV than creating additional/ new cap-ex equipment to use the optimal cell?
It may be better to use 18650 untill either the equipment wears out or AD improvements bring the incremental switching cost down.

What.... Are you taking about... Haha. Tesla does not want to ship cells from Japan that are less energy dense then ones they can make in their own house. The savings from insourcing is the whole point of the gigafactory. It's not Tesla's machines in Japan, those are Panasonic's. What extra capex? Tesla is building a battery factory to make a quantum f-ton of batteries. They are spending the capex to get scale in Nevada. Anything less then scale doesn't deliver the savings from the gigafactories economies of scale.

Non of this is a shock to Panasonic. They get more profit from gigafactory as well.
 
What.... Are you taking about... Haha. Tesla does not want to ship cells from Japan that are less energy dense then ones they can make in their own house. The savings from insourcing is the whole point of the gigafactory. It's not Tesla's machines in Japan, those are Panasonic's. What extra capex? Tesla is building a battery factory to make a quantum f-ton of batteries. They are spending the capex to get scale in Nevada. Anything less then scale doesn't deliver the savings from the gigafactories economies of scale.

Non of this is a shock to Panasonic. They get more profit from gigafactory as well.

I'll grant you that the cell manufacturing cost is borne by Panasonic. However, the building to house the machinery and the equipment to assemble the cells to packs to modules is a cost to Tesla. With the need for increased 2170s capacity for 3, PW, PP, semi, Roadster, Y, and pickup, is Tesla better off continuing to use the existing source for S/X for the next few years v.s. switching as soon as existing agreement runs out? (Assuming they even have the capacity to do so)
 
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