1st drive of 2017 MBZ E-class: lane keeping is STILL inferior Tesla's

[stopcrazypp]

This video shows the performance I'm trying to describe I want from a semi-autonomous car.

A controlled test environment is one thing, but the real world is another. The tests shown also do not have the situation described: the car was following a leading vehicle, which changed lanes, revealing a stationary vehicle, which may only partially be in the lane (off to the side, not the center), as in the van crash. All the tests shown have the system stopping in front of a cardboard cutting of a vehicle in the center of the lane.

Again, would have to wait for the E-class manual to see if it has a similar exclusion.

 

[Zybd1201]

Fully autonomous braking should definitely work with TACC. The TA part means traffic aware, and being "aware" of traffic to me would include stationary traffic. The auto steer portion doesn't even come into play in this situation. Other manufactures have autonomous braking without regard for the cruise control being on or off.

What I've read in other threads on this site from Tesla experts is that the hardware that comes with AP can't properly discern stationary items well enough from the "background noise" to brake for them. I'm not sure if that's the proper way to describe it, but that's my interpretation of what's been posted here.

Having only one camera, and only one mode of radar means the AP system can't confidently identify a stationary object from the background noise until the ultrasonic sensors come into range. By then, it may be too late to stop as appears to have happened in this accident.

You are making a lot of assumptions here, which aren't really based in fact.

1. "Traffic aware" means stationary traffic." -not true, and explicitly described in the operating manual as not being true
2. "The auto steer portion doesn't even come into play in this situation." -If I were in that driver's situation I would a. reduce speed, b. change lanes. This is what an autopilot should do as well. However, autopilot wasn't activated.
3. "What I've read in other threads on this site from Tesla experts is that the hardware that comes with AP can't properly discern stationary items well enough from the "background noise" to brake for them." -The classification of someone as an expert is a huge assumption.
4. "Having only one camera, and only one mode of radar means the AP system can't confidently identify a stationary object from the background noise until the ultrasonic sensors come into range." in case you are interested. http://www.mobileye.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/VisiobBasedACC.pdf

Finally, nowhere in here have you mentioned highly accurate and traffic aware navigational maps and you seem detached from the fact that a human was still in control of the vehicle. If you want a car that will completely drive itself and you want to wait for that. That is fine, you should not get the current car. However, the assumption that some additional hardware will suddenly make that possible is just incorrect. There are a lot more factors at play here. We have no idea as to the intent of Tesla or the methods which Tesla's engineers are deploying to achieve the goal of fully autonomous driving. What these guys have done up to this point is nothing short of incredible from an engineering and software development point of view.

The bottom line is, the current car is fantastic. It's driver assistance features are incredibly sophisticated and capable under the direction of an attentive driver. The future is complex from a psychological, legislative, and engineering perspective. There is always more than one solution and the people Tesla has working on their solution are some of the best in the world. Enjoy the car while they make their magic work. ;-)

 

[KZKZ]

You are making a lot of assumptions here, which aren't really based in fact.

1. "Traffic aware" means stationary traffic." -not true, and explicitly described in the operating manual as not being true

What I actually said was "Fully autonomous braking should definitely work with TACC. The TA part means traffic aware, and being "aware" of traffic to me would include stationary traffic."

I am describing the features I want if a car is advertised as a semi-autonomous vehicle. Its obvious from the accidents posted online that Tesla chose not to have that feature, I get that. To me its enough of a deal breaker I wouldn't proceed with an M3 (or up sell to the current S60)

I hate to say it, but TACC is just the same old ACC that has been out for years and years. TACC doesn't seem to do anything more than ACC did when it came out so many years ago. That's why I've been saying they need to update to something better before the M3 launches.

The other problem I see with TACC and braking is that automatic braking ceases when the driver starts to brake. I like the implementation Mercedes and Volvo is using whereby the car will automatically provide maximum braking no matter what the driver does with the brake pedal. In the video you can also see the E-Class flashes the rear taillights to warn following vehicles....pretty cool.

The Mercedes and Volvo (and Subaru?) can do that because they're equipped with the hardware required to see stationary objects.

 

[MarkS22]

What I actually said was "Fully autonomous braking should definitely work with TACC. The TA part means traffic aware, and being "aware" of traffic to me would include stationary traffic."

I am describing the features I want if a car is advertised as a semi-autonomous vehicle. Its obvious from the accidents posted online that Tesla chose not to have that feature, I get that. To me its enough of a deal breaker I wouldn't proceed with an M3 (or up sell to the current S60)

I hate to say it, but TACC is just the same old ACC that has been out for years and years. TACC doesn't seem to do anything more than ACC did when it came out so many years ago. That's why I've been saying they need to update to something better before the M3 launches.

The other problem I see with TACC and braking is that automatic braking ceases when the driver starts to brake. I like the implementation Mercedes and Volvo is using whereby the car will automatically provide maximum braking no matter what the driver does with the brake pedal. In the video you can also see the E-Class flashes the rear taillights to warn following vehicles....pretty cool.

The Mercedes and Volvo (and Subaru?) can do that because they're equipped with the hardware required to see stationary objects.

Are you suggesting a single camera with radar is unable to automatically brake with a stationary object? Yes, it's one of the tougher challenges but you don't need stereo cameras or lidar to accomplish that.

As I've noted above, Mercedes has better (or at least more) hardware but a much weaker "lane prevention/tacc" combo. Where all those sensors really shine is dedicated safety like better blind spot monitoring and helping prevent/mitigate rear-end collisions.

Case in point, the flashing lights on the Mercedes is brilliant. Our GLC has this option. It also tightens your seat belts and brakes to prevent being pushed into traffic. Very, very slick.

On the other hand, Distronic with Lane Assist, even with stereo cameras and more radar, is nowhere near Autopilot.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The other problem I see with TACC and braking is that automatic braking ceases when the driver starts to brake.

This claim has been repeated, but is false. Automatic braking in the Tesla continues even after the driver applies the brakes. You have to press and release the brake pedal to disable automatic braking.
See page 86 in the manual:
https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/d..._7.1_das_ap_north_america_r20160112_en_us.pdf

 

[Spidy]

This claim has been repeated, but is false. Automatic braking in the Tesla continues even after the driver applies the brakes. You have to press and release the brake pedal to disable automatic braking.
See page 86 in the manual:
https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/d..._7.1_das_ap_north_america_r20160112_en_us.pdf

https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/tesla_model_s_software_6_2.pdf
I guess they changed it then, but that's kinda the issue if you OTA everything or aren't careful when writing your changlogs and these things show up at the top of google.

 

[calisnow]

Wired magazine just released yet another bad review of the new Mercedes Drive Pilot. The question I have been chewing on is this: Why would Mercedes release such a crap lane keeping system? What does this tell about corporate culture? Remember, MBZ has been researching autonomous driving perhaps longer than any other automaker - they were experimenting back in the 1990's. They have serious AI researchers on staff and have had for some time. Yet they just released a crap system that can't stay in the lane and apparently doesn't know what it doesn't know - ie "I've lost the lane."

Mercedes must know their lane keeping sucks compared to what Tesla has on the road - Tesla's has been out for 9 months now and I'm sure MBZ has at least a few Teslas of their own. They know how accurate Tesla's system is. MBZ has tons of money. And engineers are not stupid people - they know that the real accomplishment is interpreting input to make good decisions (i.e. don't leave the lane by accident and at least be aware when you do) - not throwing more sensors on the car.

Yet they released this thing anyway. Why?

Was it too far in the dev cycle once Tesla released Autopilot in October for Benz to change course?

Here's a fresh article on the MBZ system in Wired - link is below:

"The problems crop up when the system fails to immediately and clearly convey what’s going on. Over two days of driving and riding hundreds of miles around the Monterey Peninsula, Big Sur, and Silicon Valley, the car’s decision logic repeatedly left me wondering who was in control, whether it knew what was truly happening, and what would happen next. Merge spots proved particularly tricky. In one case, the car didn’t seem to recognize there were two vehicles converging ahead of us, charging forward until I hit the brakes. This in spite of the fact that I was told the vehicle’s sensors scan in all directions. So if there were any protocols in place preventing any action, I wasn’t aware of them. In several turns on the road, the car plowed straight ahead with no apparent awareness that it may have lost track of the road’s arc, sending me toward either a wall or oncoming traffic. Each time, I saved it at the last second and put us back between the lines, where it happily took over as if nothing had happened. To the car, clearly, nothing had–though it was obviously no longer behaving appropriately.

The dashboard—featuring an artful graphic representation of the road in an array of colors and varying degrees of opacity—proved little help. A small green steering wheel icon lights up when the Drive Pilot system is on, along with a button on the steering wheel—not an obvious, helpful system for telegraphing the car’s current awareness and intentions. Did some subtle colors change, or lines harden when things started to go awry? Not that I saw–which is to say, it wasn’t obvious. So when do I jump in? Who was in charge?"

Mercedes’s New E-Class Kinda Drives Itself—And It’s Kinda Confusing

 

[Electroman]

I suspect part of the excellent lane keeping and most importantly the smooth TACC Tesla has is directly due to the fact that it is an electric drive as opposed to a clunky ICE. With an electric drive, you can control extremely fine movements and I am guessing that helps.

If that is the case that MBZ and all ICE manufacturers are toast.

 

[chillaban]

I suspect part of the excellent lane keeping and most importantly the smooth TACC Tesla has is directly due to the fact that it is an electric drive as opposed to a clunky ICE. With an electric drive, you can control extremely fine movements and I am guessing that helps.

If that is the case that MBZ and all ICE manufacturers are toast.

That's not true at all, unfortunately. Not all ICEs are "clunky". For example, the Lexus LS and Mercedes S-Class are all judged to be extremely smooth and even measured to be quieter under all circumstances except full throttle. Mercedes Distronic also performs extremely smooth throttle and brake adjustments -- sometimes even smoother than MS's slightly aggressive distance changes.... it's just that the system is designed differently: First off, it's not meant to be anticipatory to slow cars outside of your lane moving into your lane. Its distance regulation is strictly defined to regulating the distance to the car in front of you. It's unclear how this detail has changed in the 2017 E class versus the current gen S Class, but based off all the initial reviews about how poorly the car responds to slow cars merging into your lane... it sounds like it hasn't changed.

Furthermore, "Steering Pilot" is not meant to be autosteer, but instead more Autocorrect-Steer. That is, the car requires that you steer, but while you're steering, it will constantly mess with your steering resistance such that the wheel gravitates towards what the car thinks is center. It's quite different from the Autopilot/Autosteer philosophy, where basically while the car is steering, you have almost no influence to the car's desired path except by disengaging Autosteer entirely. The Mercedes one is meant to make constant minor corrections to a human-chosen steering path, not steer entirely on its own.


Don't get me wrong, the Model S is a great car, I absolutely love mine two weeks in. But this is my third luxury sedan in the > $65,000 range, and I've shopped plenty of high-end flagship ICE vehicles (like the new BMW 7 series, the A8, S Class), and I can assure you, the word clunky is not used to describe them. They are every bit as smooth and serene as an EV, perhaps more so if you're young like me and can hear high frequency switching whine.

 

[Electroman]

Thanks chillaban. Your insight is appreciated.

 

[Zybd1201]

I suspect part of the excellent lane keeping and most importantly the smooth TACC Tesla has is directly due to the fact that it is an electric drive as opposed to a clunky ICE. With an electric drive, you can control extremely fine movements and I am guessing that helps.

If that is the case that MBZ and all ICE manufacturers are toast.

From a developer's perspective it seems obvious that the reason Tesla is so far ahead is

1. They don't have a traditional model year cycle.
2. They provide over the air updates
3. They have a system in place to collect massive amounts of driver data and use it to identify edge cases, refine their software, and then (see #1 & #2).

 

[mikeash]

I'd also add: 4. They are building a brand, not protecting it.

Tesla is basically a big startup, in "go big or go home" mode. They're trying to build something amazing and are willing to take risks along the way. A company like Mercedes has a huge established business to protect, and this will naturally make them much more risk-averse.

I'm always amazed that Tesla was willing to put Autopilot out there for regular drivers with such advanced capabilities and so few limitations. I really love that they have! But I'm not the least bit surprised that other companies are reluctant to do so, even if they may be fully capable of building it.

 

[chillaban]

From a developer's perspective it seems obvious that the reason Tesla is so far ahead is

1. They don't have a traditional model year cycle.
2. They provide over the air updates
3. They have a system in place to collect massive amounts of driver data and use it to identify edge cases, refine their software, and then (see #1 & #2).

I think a lot of it is that their legal team is more ballsy in trusting customers with these features and trusting that a boilerplate "you're ultimately responsible" text is enough.


For example, the German cars have supported automatic parking in Germany since some 2011 model years but even in 2017, those features are mostly not offered in the USA with the exception of two models from Mercedes and BMW respectively. And you can find plenty of Youtube videos of a prototype S class doing quite well at city driving in Europe, including roundabouts and correct right-of-way decisions…. but what they offer in production is nothing more than a driver assistance package.

 

[KZKZ]

This claim has been repeated, but is false. Automatic braking in the Tesla continues even after the driver applies the brakes. You have to press and release the brake pedal to disable automatic braking.
See page 86 in the manual:
https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/d..._7.1_das_ap_north_america_r20160112_en_us.pdf

According to the latest manual, AEB will not bring the car to a complete stop, it will only slow the car by 25mph, then it releases the brakes.

The brakes are released? How can that be a safe design? The German designs are so many light years ahead of this.

When Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced the driving speed by 25 mph (40 km/h), the brakes are released. For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving at 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when the speed has been reduced to 31 mph (50 km/h). Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between 5 mph (8 km/h) and 85 mph (140 km/h).

 

[chillaban]

According to the latest manual, AEB will not bring the car to a complete stop, it will only slow the car by 25mph, then it releases the brakes.

The brakes are released? How can that be a safe design? The German designs are so many light years ahead of this.

When Automatic Emergency Braking has reduced the driving speed by 25 mph (40 km/h), the brakes are released. For example, if Automatic Emergency Braking applies braking when driving at 56 mph (90 km/h), it releases the brakes when the speed has been reduced to 31 mph (50 km/h). Automatic Emergency Braking operates only when driving between 5 mph (8 km/h) and 85 mph (140 km/h).

Automatic Emergency Braking is an assist system designed to grab your attention and buy you more time to make a proper decision…. When your car beeps and engages emergency braking, hopefully that's a cue to take control and continue to brake the car. In no circumstance with today's cars (from any manufacturer) is it intended that you can just watch the car do all the emergency braking for you…


In reality, the reason for this is likely that a sudden 25mph deceleration due to a false alarm or overzealous collision alarm is far less dangerous than bringing the car to a complete stop, which can even subject you to G forces that make it difficult to apply the correct inputs to the steering wheel and so on.

I've had two cars before my current one with the more advanced German collision avoidance systems that are capable of fully avoiding an accident without human intervention. I agree they are nice, and particularly beneficial if the driver is incapacitated, but I don't think the real-world difference is very big. The biggest value-add is warning the driver of an imminent crash. From that point on, the driver ought to be able to decide whether to brake or swerve.



P.S. The Germans misstate/overrepresent things in their manuals all the time. For example, the Audi system is supposed to recognize pedestrians but I've never had that trigger despite some close instances thanks to thick pillars. It's also supposed to recognize stationary cars by a camera but unlike Tesla where that works 95% of the time, in the Audi system it basically only recognized gray/silver colored previous-generation Mercedes E Classes. I've had one particularly scary activation of the emergency braking system while making a left turn, and it misrecognized the car in front as suddenly stopping instead of making a U-turn. It skipped the audible alert and brake jolt and directly slammed on the brakes and brought my car to a full stop and nearly resulted in a collision with the car behind me. To make matters worse, pressing harder on the throttle did not override the car, so I remained stopped for a good second after this incident…. I had to let go of the gas and then press it again to resume moving my car.


It was that last incident that taught me that the car suddenly applying full braking without warning knocks the wind out of you, and the G forces are quite startling and make it difficult to regain control of the car until it lets off on the brakes.

 

[stopcrazypp]

P.S. The Germans misstate/overrepresent things in their manuals all the time.

Actually their manuals are generally accurate on the limitations of the system (they will have disclaimers about the system not working in certain situations), but the advertising and demos on the other hand may not be.

 

[xav-]

I can't imagine the Germans to catch up anytime soon with the autopilot. Too much bureaucracy, too old. I think nobody will ever compete until new start ups like tesla emerge or until Google and Apple step in.

 

[chillaban]

Actually their manuals are generally accurate on the limitations of the system (they will have disclaimers about the system not working in certain situations), but the advertising and demos on the other hand may not be.

You're absolutely right. They do have disclaimers about the limitations of the automated collision system, including the most important one: Don't rely on the automated emergency braking to avoid a collision -- always apply the correct input yourself even if you're just confirming that the car is correctly braking.

But I also agree: Some of the ads (not just from the Germans) depicting AEB systems and other driver assists (blind spot monitoring, lane departure warning) are straight up fantasies. They seem to make you believe that you can just close your eyes and your car will stop in a safe spot every time... when in reality no system on the market delivers on that dream.

 

[KZKZ]

Automatic Emergency Braking is an assist system designed to grab your attention and buy you more time to make a proper decision…. When your car beeps and engages emergency braking, hopefully that's a cue to take control and continue to brake the car. In no circumstance with today's cars (from any manufacturer) is it intended that you can just watch the car do all the emergency braking for you…

Actually, the E-Class will autonomously brake all the way down to zero without intervention.

The clue to drivers is the warning tone and visual alerts. If the driver doesn't brake, or more likely doesn't brake hard enough, the vehicle will take over.

I can't imagine the Germans to catch up anytime soon with the autopilot. Too much bureaucracy, too old. I think nobody will ever compete until new start ups like tesla emerge or until Google and Apple step in.

The 2017 E-Class is the first and only car to be licensed as a fully autonomous car in the State of Nevada. The E-Class that is licensed is running different software than the public version, but the hardware is exactly the same. The hardware in the E-Class is much more robust than the Tesla and much more capable (rear looking radar, multiple radars looking with significantly further and wider views of the road ahead and intersecting roads, stereo cameras, etc. Volvo is releasing fully autonomous cars in Sweden next year.

I agree I don't ever see any established company like Mercedes or Volvo releasing Beta software on consumers. At least not when safety systems are involved.

Mercedes-Benz E-Class Granted Autonomous Driving License in Nevada

Mercedes Granted License To Test Autonomous E-Class In Nevada

 

[KZKZ]

Automatic Emergency Braking is an assist system designed to grab your attention and buy you more time to make a proper decision…. When your car beeps and engages emergency braking, hopefully that's a cue to take control and continue to brake the car. In no circumstance with today's cars (from any manufacturer) is it intended that you can just watch the car do all the emergency braking for you

That is not correct, a Automatic Emergency Braking is not "an assist system designed to grab your attention". An Automatic Emergency Barking system is a system designed to automatically bake the vehicle in an emergency.

Collision Warning Systems are "an assist system designed to grab your attention".

One comes before the other. If the AEB is already engaging because the driver is distracted, there isn't adequate time to "grab the attention" of the driver and have that driver assess the situation and figure out what to do.