Perhaps it is a public safety matter in some climates and some parts of the U.S. and Canada. In western Washington, Oregon, California, even people who drive to the mountains don't expect other drivers to use winter tires. I suspect same is true for most of Colorado and Utah. When I take a winter trip from Seattle to inner B.C. Canada and drive through mountain passes I know I need to be extra conservative with my performance winter tires because conditions are sometimes nasty and majority of cars use proper non-performance winter tires.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
1st Snow day for my Model 3 SR+ and for the season - lost control and bumped into divider
- Thread starter Kali
- Start date
Perhaps it is a public safety matter in some climates and some parts of the U.S. and Canada. In western Washington, Oregon, California, even people who drive to the mountains don't expect other drivers to use winter tires. I suspect same is true for most of Colorado and Utah. When I take a winter trip from Seattle to inner B.C. Canada and drive through mountain passes I know I need to be extra conservative with my performance winter tires because conditions are sometimes nasty and majority of cars use proper non-performance winter tires.
Sounds like what you are trying to say is that you think Tesla's AWD is worse than most other cars AWD in winter, and that a Tesla requires better tires for similar level of handling and safety on the snow. Yes, some people voiced this opinion, most in indirect way, though. Most of loudest voices on this forum troll the heck out of everybody claiming that nothing can even come close to Tesla's AWD. I have been on the other side of this argument during last winter.
Note that having winter tires also means for Tesla owners that they will have considerably less nimble and less safe car on dry roads during winter. So, this is not black and white.
Me? I think Tesla's AWD has really strong sides and also has some quirks. I don't exactly understand from engineering POV what that rear bias everybody is talking about and why it is bad. I think it can make driving more fun when applied properly. I have observed the following two situations (also in summer on summer tires, BTW):
1) front wheels fairly abruptly lost traction in a gentle turn taken at decent speed when most torque felt like it was on rear wheels and it took the car way too long (compared to other AWD cars I owned) to decrease the power and start correcting (and the correction was fairly abrupt too);
2) when rear wheels start sliding Tesla does not decrease torque to rears in time.
I think this can and should be fixed in a car with electronically (and programmatically) controlled torque/power.
An example of (2) was at 10-15mph when I was driving over a metallic plate on the road covering a construction trench. I automatically slowed down before the plate to decrease the impact on my low profile tires and gave very slight push to the accelerator when my rear wheels where on the plate. Not a big input at all - I was between cars driving slowly. As the plate was at a very slight incline to the side the rear wheel started sliding to the side. There was no danger of anything but I was the only car out of many slowing down for the plate and speeding up as they were over where the back slid a bit to the side. I didn't see any car in front doing that and I specifically looked at the rear view mirror.
Exactly! Back to square one that all season tires can be the most reasonable choice in winter driving conditions.
All seasons are not the most reasonable choice in Denver. Hence, this dude's wreck.
We’re you running snows on those events? The way you are articulating it Tesla really needs to fix this.
I don’t think it’s all Tesla’s that have that rear bias (or whatever it is, we agree there is something odd there). Just Model 3 AWD. Not sure about Raven’s though. I’ll let you know soon.
I wonder if it has anything to do with on ICE the front and rear are “linked” but on EV they are independent.
It all depends on how much you’ll be driving on slippery stuff to say your making the car less safe with winter tires. There are Performance Snows that give up very little in dry or wet handling with huge improvements on slippery stuff.
Wow, what an idiot, and a dishonest SOB! This 1st post of yours is trying to deflect blame to the car due to "something wrong with traction system". Yet, in the following 3 posts in this thread, you acknowledge it was your inability to predict road conditions relative to the tires you CHOSE to drive on that day.
You drove on *incorrect* tires for the conditions, and THAT is why you wrecked. YOU did that to yourself and your car. Accept blame and man the **** up.
No, summers. It is easier for me to observe and analyze traction on summers. Infrequently, but I do push my 3P to the edge of traction, more when it is wet. In winter it is harder for me to analyze what's happening to the car beyond "must be a rear bias" sort of things. Sometimes, the car behaves really well on the snow, sometimes OK, sometimes I am driving a snowy highway uphill and course stability is compromised unless I depress accelerator and go slower than other cars around me that don't show any signs of struggle.
While discussing AWD, it does not really matter it is summer or winter. AWD should react to loss of traction well. I _can_ imagine AWD being optimized to dry/wet/gravel/snow but it does not sound like the technology is anywhere close.
AWD systems in ICEs are increasingly electronically controlled. Since 2007 we had an Acura with SH-AWD that had some magnetic clutches to control torque to rear wheels. I noticed Audi has introduced a new AWD with electronic control and uses it's sophisticated but mechanical torque sensing differential on fewer models. Simplistically, AWD on Acura felt the safest and the most predictable and the Audi S4's we still have has AWD that is way sportier and more playful.
That's what I use in winter for the last 9 years or so and before that I drove on all-seasons to ski resorts and got where I wanted to get with same rate of success. Observing variety of tires when riding with other people and driving other people's cars, I can tell that, in ability to maintain speed on a highway in snow blizzard conditions, performance winter tires are closer to all season ones than to proper winter tires. Having bigger tire and a heavier car helps a lot too.
You have a valid point about this doesn't apply to just snow and ice. There does seem to be some conflict between how well the Model 3 can do on a track (in track mode) versus how well it doesn't do sometimes without track mode on snow and ice (regardless of tires).
Keep in mind most AWD systems still start with an "Open" differential. All the sensing and coupling technics are to decide how to get torque to the slipping wheel.
I've tended to avoid highways in blizzards these days. But I was a bit surprised on very slippery hills (like my driveway) that on other AWD cars with good snows, they would just go immediately (I could crawl out). The Model 3 would not crawl. I could hear wheels spinning (most likely the rear) and car not budging. Not until I goosed it (pretty good) then it would go (and faster than I would like). Felt like the cheap viscous coupled center differential cars. I'm not sure how much this "rear bias" thing is happening at speed though. Not easy to test. Is the AWD Model 3 normally (light load with good grip) running RWD?
One thing the Model 3 could be doing is, it senses traction issues and after a while switches to AWD automatically (turn off efficient rear bias). It's only in sudden need for AWD that might be questioned. If that was the case you'd think it would be talked about (by Tesla or some expert) or measured by someone with the equipment to do it.
Last edited:
Reasonablenif you only make a handful of trips into the winter. Not if you live in a winter climate. And like ^^^ shake said. Heavier Weight is a major disadvantage on slick surfaces. You can’t beat physics.
Are we still talking about safe driving and ability to maintain speed on a highway in snow blizzard conditions with some packed surfaces, some softer mushy snow and some snow drifts? Or did you switch to drifting on groomed courses?
I would love a physics lesson on Sunday. Please do reason about how weight and tire diameter (size and number of blocks, sipes, etc.) as applicable to A/S or winter tires affect friction under steady state driving and when sliding.
Weight does have some advantage, mostly for cutting through the snow and getting the tire to grip the asphalt underneath. But you don't get this on a road car. Those 18-wheelers do have the weight advantage. 4000lbs car vs 3500lbs car - not so much.
I've had plenty of ice/snow rallyx driving in a bunch of Audi/VW products and a ton of Subaru's, as well as some RWD/FWD cars. The thing about AWD systems is that they all are MUCH harder to control reliably than a good RWD/FWD car with a proper limited slip. One instant those AWD cars can react to inputs like FWD cars and the next moment like a RWD one, depending on grip under front/rear tires. So, I do not expect much predictability from Tesla's AWD either. You get winter tires not to push it into corners on the street, but to have extra safety margin compared to most people around. Sure, go ahead, play with those tires in an empty parking lot, but that won't improve anyone's skills much.
Without regular refresher of at-the-limit car control muscle memory the best thing most people can do once they lose control is to slam on the brake and let ABS do its' thing. Sure, 'braking in the corner when sliding is the worst one can do, yada-yada,' but an inexperienced driver trying to save a slide (or an experienced in the past with dormant muscle memory) will likely make things worse. So, brake. That way you'd hit the obstacle you're gonna hit anyway at a slower speed and with the front of your car - the end that was designed to take a hit.
So, the purpose of winter tires is NOT to have to experience whatever weird AWD algorithms Tesla has cooked up. Personally, I wouldn't be found dead driving all-season tires. Cause they are never the right answer and there's always something better. But I'm a weirdo, I generally have a set of performance winters for the mild winter, and set of Nordic winter tires for a typical Michigan 4-6 week stretch in January-February.
I've had plenty of ice/snow rallyx driving in a bunch of Audi/VW products and a ton of Subaru's, as well as some RWD/FWD cars. The thing about AWD systems is that they all are MUCH harder to control reliably than a good RWD/FWD car with a proper limited slip. One instant those AWD cars can react to inputs like FWD cars and the next moment like a RWD one, depending on grip under front/rear tires. So, I do not expect much predictability from Tesla's AWD either. You get winter tires not to push it into corners on the street, but to have extra safety margin compared to most people around. Sure, go ahead, play with those tires in an empty parking lot, but that won't improve anyone's skills much.
Without regular refresher of at-the-limit car control muscle memory the best thing most people can do once they lose control is to slam on the brake and let ABS do its' thing. Sure, 'braking in the corner when sliding is the worst one can do, yada-yada,' but an inexperienced driver trying to save a slide (or an experienced in the past with dormant muscle memory) will likely make things worse. So, brake. That way you'd hit the obstacle you're gonna hit anyway at a slower speed and with the front of your car - the end that was designed to take a hit.
So, the purpose of winter tires is NOT to have to experience whatever weird AWD algorithms Tesla has cooked up. Personally, I wouldn't be found dead driving all-season tires. Cause they are never the right answer and there's always something better. But I'm a weirdo, I generally have a set of performance winters for the mild winter, and set of Nordic winter tires for a typical Michigan 4-6 week stretch in January-February.
Had the 3 for only a few months, so it's gonna be my first winter in it. I doubt I'd take it rallycrossing or up north to drive on iced lakes. The cost of plowing into a snowdrift are likely to be quite prohibitive.
Would you say a 5000lb AWD SUV with bigger diameter tires, bigger contact patch, bigger and more rubber blocks on tires will have easier time starting and keeping going on a snowy road compared to a 3500lb AWD sedan/vagon with similar kind of winter or A/S tires? Presuming the tires can't dig all the way to asphalt.
Not talking about rallyx, of course. I am talking about mountain passes when it is snowing or roads to ski resorts (typical snow encounters for us on the west coast).
It all depends on the exact conditions. Like on ice. A bigger tire patch and weight can help. There are certainly cases where weight helps and other cases it’s worse.
It’s like choosing the right wax for cross country skiing.
Big contact patch (all else equal) helps on ice/snow. But for 5000lbs SUV all else isn't equal. Their contact patch usually does not rise in proportion to the weight. Bigger rubber blocks won't help, those are for asphalt. For snow you want a bunch of cuts across the tire, so that those would grip the snow, and a hydrophilic rubber compound, so that the snow would stick to the tire (and then other snow would stick to that snow). If there is no way to dig through to the asphalt underneath, weight doesn't offer much advantage and becomes a detriment.
Good analogy that like 1% would relate to...
Don't have a better one though. Maybe choosing a movie for a large family. There will be trade-offs and bad outcomes for some
I’m not saying the model 3 is bad on winter roads. But since you asked My >6k lb AWD SUV on 33s “goes” way more predictably then the model 3. Stopping though is much worse and on a bullet proof icy day I would take the model 3 every time.
I hear you. I tried to run the course (by myself) as a pre runner on Big Lake up here in Alaska. Since I’m running Hakka 9s (studded) they wouldn’t let me since the 3 isn’t caged. I have taken out out on the open ice though to test its limits in a (somewhat) controlled environment.
