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$2.3 billion Icy Road Regenerative Braking Lawsuit

ReddyLeaf

Active Member
Mar 19, 2014
1,836
3,550
WA State
Shift into neutral? I was taught that when skidding and the systems kick in to let them do it's job, and to not shift into neutral or pull a parking brake since it would actually turn off those systems. This was also back in about 2006 so it could have just been the car maker then.
This may have something to do with when you learned. Many on this thread learned way before antilock brakes were invented. My first driving experience was a 57 Chevy, three on the tree, no power steering. I've also learned how to stop a RWD vehicle faster on ice by putting it into reverse and flooring it (probably doesn't work with "new" vehicles).
 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,508
8,649
Visalia, CA
Termites?

I believe wheels and suspension systems are designed to absorb collision force and should easily give way as their critical sacrificial mission.

I prefer them to break first to reduce the force of impact rather than transmitting the full force to break me.
 
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sorka

Well-Known Member
Feb 28, 2015
8,281
6,246
Merced, CA
I have a early P85 RWD, and it is phenomenal in the snow and ice, better than almost any other car I've driven. You can lift on the accelerator and engage the regenerative braking while turning on slippery roads, but the car only drifts a little bit before it corrects itself. It's really, really good and it has convinced me to forego the AWD dual motor when I order the Model 3. I'm sure the dual motor cars are even better, but to me it's not worth the extra money (and wait). Sorry Tesla. But of course, some people will manage to crash no matter how good the car is.

But this is still not as safe or controllable as applying brakes lightly to all 4 wheels. Braking with the rear wheels only is very dangerous in this circumstance.

This is why if you must slow down around an icy corner in a 2 wheel drive manual transmission car you do NOT do so with engine breaking as you're only using half the available contact patch (2 wheels).

Do the D cars not use both motors for regen when lifting off the pedal? If so, then this lawsuit is completely baseless. If not, then it should have been made clear to the owner that they should use nuetral and physically apply the brakes so that all 4 contact patches are used rather than just 2.
 

PV1

Member
Aug 28, 2013
56
19
Pittsburgh
I don't know how Tesla and others handle it, but my Mitsubishi can sense even the slightest slip and reduce regen if necessary. I've come down some rather steep hills on some very bad roads using nothing but regen on a 2,500 lb. RWD EV. If regen became too strong for the traction available, it reduced it to 25% and brought it back on gradually all by itself. Of course, with the radio off, I could hear the difference in the tires and tell when I was just about to slip and could manually reduce regen to avoid automatic cutout.

Regen won't lock up the wheels, but it could cause a dramatic deceleration of the wheels if not programmed correctly.
 

oktane

Active Member
Oct 25, 2016
1,787
2,573
USA
I don't know how Tesla and others handle it, but my Mitsubishi can sense even the slightest slip and reduce regen if necessary. I've come down some rather steep hills on some very bad roads using nothing but regen on a 2,500 lb. RWD EV. If regen became too strong for the traction available, it reduced it to 25% and brought it back on gradually all by itself. Of course, with the radio off, I could hear the difference in the tires and tell when I was just about to slip and could manually reduce regen to avoid automatic cutout.

Regen won't lock up the wheels, but it could cause a dramatic deceleration of the wheels if not programmed correctly.

And this, likely, is the crux of the lawsuit. That's what happens when you skimp on testing and use paying customers for beta testing of products. Would love to see deposition of how many miles of testing were done in snowy mountain roads. It looks like at least some, but unclear if hills were also involved based on this?

Cold Weather Climate Testing the Model S

I don't see any hills on a topo map of Baudette, MN.
 

S4WRXTTCS

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
5,740
6,897
Snohomish, WA
I don't know how Tesla and others handle it, but my Mitsubishi can sense even the slightest slip and reduce regen if necessary. I've come down some rather steep hills on some very bad roads using nothing but regen on a 2,500 lb. RWD EV. If regen became too strong for the traction available, it reduced it to 25% and brought it back on gradually all by itself. Of course, with the radio off, I could hear the difference in the tires and tell when I was just about to slip and could manually reduce regen to avoid automatic cutout.

Regen won't lock up the wheels, but it could cause a dramatic deceleration of the wheels if not programmed correctly.

My understanding is this is exactly what the Tesla does, but I haven't seen any agreement among owners of this. I've had a Model S (the 70D specifically) since 2015, and I still don't know exactly what it does. On the rare occasion that it does snow I've never sensed anything unusual. But, I've never purposely tested for this.

It does so well on snow that I imagine I'd really have to be on ice to do a proper test.

To me this lawsuit really comes down to whether the system can sense it, and if the system worked. If it didn't I see some merit in the lawsuit. The fact that this thread is fairly small leads me to believe that most owners don't experience any significant issues with it.

I don't see any merit if the driver simply exceeded the law of physics. People with capable cars exceed these laws all the time with dire consequences.
 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,508
8,649
Visalia, CA
Tesla still runs at about few miles an hour and it does not stop completely but It sounds like the next car for plaintiff Roy Wiseman is a new Nissan Leaf with one pedal driving that stops completely when you take your foot off:

Nissan next-gen Leaf has ‘e-Pedal’ feature for one-pedal driving with regenerative braking


nissan-e-pedal-leaf-e1500481117922.png
 

JHWJR

Member
Jan 31, 2017
419
382
Pittsburgh PA
I think that EVERYBODY should take their car out to a big empty snowy/icy parking lot and drive it around and skid and slide and accelerate and do a few donuts and slam on the brakes and get accustomed to what it does and how it performs. It should be standard driver training.
 

McRat

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2016
5,771
6,077
LA
I think that EVERYBODY should take their car out to a big empty snowy/icy parking lot and drive it around and skid and slide and accelerate and do a few donuts and slam on the brakes and get accustomed to what it does and how it performs. It should be standard driver training.

You don't need ice and snow to get seat time with oversteer and understeer. Any decent high performance driving school will cover it by either using special cars, a wet/slick skidpad, or special tires designed to slide.
 

BioSehnsucht

Model 3 LR
Apr 1, 2016
1,794
4,902
DFW, TX
You don't need ice and snow to get seat time with oversteer and understeer. Any decent high performance driving school will cover it by either using special cars, a wet/slick skidpad, or special tires designed to slide.
True, but there is value to being able to experience it in *your* car, since not all cars handle the same. Perhaps there should be some kind of public safety event that sets up wet/slick skid pads and such and lets you drive your own car through?
 

Doug_G

Lead Moderator
Apr 2, 2010
17,882
3,391
Ottawa, Canada
Ridiculous. This can happen in any car. Simply lifting off the gas on ice in a gas vehicle can cause a spin. Anyone living around here learns that pretty quickly. This sounds like a crash caused by inexperience with driving in winter conditions.

People who are going to drive in winter conditions should really take a winter driving school. Unfortunately you don't have to learn how to control a vehicle to get a driver's license.
 

Olle

Member
Jul 17, 2013
802
418
Orlando, FL
I lived 20 years in Sweden and drove all kinds of cars in severely icy and snowy conditions and can attest that Tesla is the safest winter driving car that money can buy. What an awful lawsuit.

If Tesla loses this suit then all makers of cars, bicycles and shoes than can slip on ice will be sued and lose.
 

JHWJR

Member
Jan 31, 2017
419
382
Pittsburgh PA
You don't need ice and snow to get seat time with oversteer and understeer. Any decent high performance driving school will cover it
If you aren't on ice and snow, then you have no experience on how the car performs on ice and snow.

And do you really think almost anyone ever goes to a "high performance driving school"? You reject 30 free minutes in a parking lot for a "high performance driving school"? Why not just recommend a career in Formula 1 racing to hone one's driving school. Please. You're drunk. Go home.
 

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