$2.3 billion Icy Road Regenerative Braking Lawsuit

[JHWJR]

Because we don't. Try suing someone and winning and see if they cover your legal fees.

You still haven't thought about it, have you. Well, let me give you a taste. I'm very wealthy, but you are not. I have done you a great wrong. So you sue me. With all my wealth, I pummel you and bury you with 200 attorneys filing all kinds of motions and conducting amazing levels of investigation. You don't have the wealth to keep up. So you lose, not because your case didn't have a chance, but you could not afford even 3 attorneys to fight your battle. And what do I care, because when you lose, I can heap my bills on you. And it will ruin you.

Don't you see how this system that you would put into place has it own problems? Do you think the folks who run things have never thought about such things? Don't you see the value of letting people decide for themselves how much to spend on litigation and, likely and in most cases, keeping the expenses commiserate with the importance of the issues and the amount at stake because, untimely, the party who has the services performed will be expected to pay for those services.

It's not a perfect system, to be sure, but the balances involved have almost never been considered by folks thinking I should be able to make you pay my bills. There ya go. Free legal guidance.

 

[ahkahn]

You still haven't thought about it, have you. Well, let me give you a taste. I'm very wealthy, but you are not. I have done you a great wrong. So you sue me. With all my wealth, I pummel you and bury you with 200 attorneys filing all kinds of motions and conducting amazing levels of investigation. You don't have the wealth to keep up. So you lose, not because your case didn't have a chance, but you could not afford even 3 attorneys to fight your battle. And what do I care, because when you lose, I can heap my bills on you. And it will ruin you.

Don't you see how this system that you would put into place has it own problems? Do you think the folks who run things have never thought about such things? Don't you see the value of letting people decide for themselves how much to spend on litigation and, likely and in most cases, keeping the expenses commiserate with the importance of the issues and the amount at stake because, untimely, the party who has the services performed will be expected to pay for those services.

It's not a perfect system, to be sure, but the balances involved have almost never been considered by folks thinking I should be able to make you pay my bills. There ya go. Free legal guidance.

Valid point. Still doesn't negate my point that winner should still be made whole. But, all points as to why I think lawyers are scumbags.

 

[McRat]

If you aren't on ice and snow, then you have no experience on how the car performs on ice and snow.

And do you really think almost anyone ever goes to a "high performance driving school"? You reject 30 free minutes in a parking lot for a "high performance driving school"? Why not just recommend a career in Formula 1 racing to hone one's driving school. Please. You're drunk. Go home.

Everybody in my family has attended one or more performance driving schools. They range from $100 to $4500 depending. A great one for teens is B.R.A.K.E.S. I recommend it, and recommend sending a donation to them. Started by a professional racer after his two teens died in crash, they are fighting to save lives and are an honest charity (which is refreshing today). Annual Report | B.R.A.K.E.S. Teen Driver's Training For Safe Driving and Accident Prevention . For the whole family, the Bondurant School is a riot. Lots of fun. Do it for entertainment, get free training as an added bonus.

I'm willing to bet your 'skills' are not up to your confidence. You think 30 minutes on flat ground with no car tracks, road lines, blinding snow, black ice on the north sides of mountains, etc, is what winter driving is about. And you don't think driving skills are something that can be taught.

One of most memorable winter drives was in Toronto(?) in January(?) about 20 years ago. I was at a vendor site, and drove back to my hotel after the days work. The next morning I had to be back at 7 am. It was the freakin' Zombie Apocalypse out there that morning. Every snow bank had a car or two stuffed in it. I guess they get drunk, lose it driving home, and call a cab? Or do they just sleep in their cars? How do they plow with all those cars stuck? Is it against the law in Canada to drive at night with your lights on? Or is there a minimum speed in Canada of 100 km/h when it's snowing? Whatever happened, apparently nobody knew how to drive in snow.

 

[Saxxon]

Class Sues Tesla for Dangerous Braking System

Model X owner Roy Wiseman claims that Regenerative Braking is a danger on icy road because when he took off the accelerator it would automatically brake which caused the car skid off to a mountainside.

I don't understand the merit of this lawsuit.

I imagine if the car did not have Regenerative Braking, he would fly off to a mountainside instead of skidding off.

I don't think the suit has merit. Having lived in NJ & CO and driving cars and trucks including 18 wheelers, any competent driver learns not to brake aggressively on ice. For one, they can feather the pedal to reduce the regenerative braking - or simply turn it off in the console. if they weren't astute enough to do so its no one's fault but their own.

 

[JHWJR]

But, all points as to why I think lawyers are scumbags.

We probably think the same about you.

 

[JHWJR]

I'm willing to bet your 'skills' are not up to your confidence. You think 30 minutes on flat ground with no car tracks, road lines, blinding snow, black ice on the north sides of mountains, etc, is what winter driving is about. And you don't think driving skills are something that can be taught.

Wrong on almost every count, and I grew up just south of the Great Lakes and had about 4 months of bad driving weather nearly every year for decades, Mr. California.

 

[jpl]

Is it my imagination, or has model X regenerative braking gotten less aggressive after recent updates? Used to be, if let up on the accelerator, the car would slow down. Now it seems to coast, unless I'm already at low speed. Perhaps this suit explains it.

 

[DMC-Orangeville]

One of most memorable winter drives was in Toronto(?) in January(?) about 20 years ago. I was at a vendor site, and drove back to my hotel after the days work. The next morning I had to be back at 7 am. It was the freakin' Zombie Apocalypse out there that morning. Every snow bank had a car or two stuffed in it. I guess they get drunk, lose it driving home, and call a cab? Or do they just sleep in their cars? How do they plow with all those cars stuck? Is it against the law in Canada to drive at night with your lights on? Or is there a minimum speed in Canada of 100 km/h when it's snowing? Whatever happened, apparently nobody knew how to drive in snow.

Many people in Toronto don't know how to drive in the snow. They don't get a lot of snow in the city, many cars don't have winter tires, and the plows are not efficient at cleaning the roads. When it does snow - it becomes, as you said, an apocalypse. Those who do have 4 wheel drive and winter tires think they can drive normally as well. They are usually the ones in the snow banks. It's typically SUVs. We *snow belters* laugh at the folks there.....but I hate having to go into the city (and often must) after even a couple of inches of snow......

 

[Dutchie]

I just encountered the same. First snowfall here and going down a small hill. All four wheels blocked, even though I was going very slow. I narrowly avoided a curb. After this I put regen in "low" and I was OK.
I looked in the manual and found it strange that nothing was mentioned about this phenomenon. No warning...nothing. When you encounter a situation like that there is nothing you can do. Yes, I later thought of applying the accelerator but that is so counter intuitive.
Tesla should address this!

 

[roblab]

Is it my imagination, or has model X regenerative braking gotten less aggressive after recent updates? Used to be, if let up on the accelerator, the car would slow down. Now it seems to coast, unless I'm already at low speed. Perhaps this suit explains it.

Is it my imagination, or has model X regenerative braking gotten less aggressive after recent updates? Used to be, if let up on the accelerator, the car would slow down. Now it seems to coast, unless I'm already at low speed. Perhaps this suit explains it.

My S has options for regen strength.

 

[Ugliest1]

Is it my imagination, or has model X regenerative braking gotten less aggressive after recent updates? Used to be, if let up on the accelerator, the car would slow down. Now it seems to coast, unless I'm already at low speed. Perhaps this suit explains it.

Check your setting? Maybe someone changed it to whatever-the-button-says-for-coasting.

 

[TaoJones]

Perhaps a pop up reminder on the Nav at 35F/2C or less that regen = low may be helpful is a feature request that would, um, gain some traction.

Because as we know, few people rtfm.

 

[mkspeedr]

Slamming on the handbrake on an icy road is a very bad idea.
Having the Tesla apply the brakes to the back wheels has the exact same effect.
No problem for all you guys that are better than the average driver.
When It Comes To Driving, Most People Think Their Skills are Above Average

I believe my car (motorcycle too) skills are better than average...on dry or wet roads. Snow and Ice - I am not qualified to comment and BTW - I have no plans for improving those skills.

 

[David99]

1: Doesn't traction/ stability control override regenerative breaking?

It does not. At least not in my old RWD Model S. When driving on very slippery roads, regenerative braking is too strong and will make the back wheels loose traction and the car becomes unstable quickly. I have had a few very scary moments on black ice in Texas.

In theory you can keep the foot slightly on the pedal, but that theory goes out the window as soon as you want to switch to the brake pedal. At that point you have to fully release the accelerator which automatically engages regen. In these situations it would be best to have regen disabled or at least reduced to a minimum amount. Even 'low' setting is too strong.

In situations where regen is causing the car to loose traction are conditions where you should not drive at all or drive very very slow. If you car slides off the road when regen is too much you have been driving too fast for the conditions. I mean, when it comes down to it, no car or technology can outdo physics. If the road conditions are so slippery, you it may not be safe to drive at all.

I hope this lawsuit will be dismissed. I can't see how Tesla is at fault here. Nevertheless I think Tesla should have a option to disable regen for driving in very slippery conditions.

 

[mongo]

It does not. At least not in my old RWD Model S. When driving on very slippery roads, regenerative braking is too strong and will make the back wheels loose traction and the car becomes unstable quickly. I have had a few very scary moments on black ice in Texas.

In theory you can keep the foot slightly on the pedal, but that theory goes out the window as soon as you want to switch to the brake pedal. At that point you have to fully release the accelerator which automatically engages regen. In these situations it would be best to have regen disabled or at least reduced to a minimum amount. Even 'low' setting is too strong.

In situations where regen is causing the car to loose traction are conditions where you should not drive at all or drive very very slow. If you car slides off the road when regen is too much you have been driving too fast for the conditions. I mean, when it comes down to it, no car or technology can outdo physics. If the road conditions are so slippery, you it may not be safe to drive at all.

I hope this lawsuit will be dismissed. I can't see how Tesla is at fault here. Nevertheless I think Tesla should have a option to disable regen for driving in very slippery conditions.

Interesting. I wonder then if the conditions are such that there is insufficient traction to overcome the drive unit inertia once regen has created a loss of traction.
In a RWD vehicle when brakes have not been applied, the front wheel speed sensors provide a good indication of what the road speed is. Based on that, the drive unit could get the rear wheels to match by spinning them up, but that would mean the vehicle is producing unrequested force.

Harkens back to my front wheel drive small car days. I much prefered a manual due to the ability to use the clutch to avoid spin outs due to engine braking torque.

 

[Dutchie]

It does not. At least not in my old RWD Model S. When driving on very slippery roads, regenerative braking is too strong and will make the back wheels loose traction and the car becomes unstable quickly. I have had a few very scary moments on black ice in Texas.

In theory you can keep the foot slightly on the pedal, but that theory goes out the window as soon as you want to switch to the brake pedal. At that point you have to fully release the accelerator which automatically engages regen. In these situations it would be best to have regen disabled or at least reduced to a minimum amount. Even 'low' setting is too strong.

In situations where regen is causing the car to loose traction are conditions where you should not drive at all or drive very very slow. If you car slides off the road when regen is too much you have been driving too fast for the conditions. I mean, when it comes down to it, no car or technology can outdo physics. If the road conditions are so slippery, you it may not be safe to drive at all.

I hope this lawsuit will be dismissed. I can't see how Tesla is at fault here. Nevertheless I think Tesla should have a option to disable regen for driving in very slippery conditions.

Agree, however, Tesla should warn people about this issue. There is nothing in the manual about this issue. A few sentences under ABS or something of that scope would help. I was taken off-guard as well.

 

[CUBldr97]

The second day I had my RWD drive Mustang GT (back 1997) in Colorado, in a snow storm, I lifted of the gas just a bit and the torque change in the rear wheels caused me to completely lose control of the car, even though I knew what to do and how to drive in the snow.... Crap happens, they were unlucky in the condition they were driving in, and also not familiar with the car, end of story. IT had nothing to do with REGEN contributing factor, but rather knowledge, and experience.

 

[David99]

Interesting. I wonder then if the conditions are such that there is insufficient traction to overcome the drive unit inertia once regen has created a loss of traction.
In a RWD vehicle when brakes have not been applied, the front wheel speed sensors provide a good indication of what the road speed is. Based on that, the drive unit could get the rear wheels to match by spinning them up, but that would mean the vehicle is producing unrequested force.

Harkens back to my front wheel drive small car days. I much prefered a manual due to the ability to use the clutch to avoid spin outs due to engine braking torque.

The best thing would really to have regen disabled when driving on icy roads. Zero torque on the wheels is the best thing to keep the car stable. Technically regen automatically reduces it's strength with speed. As the wheels turn slower regen adjusts down. But it's nowheere near enough and quick enough to keep the wheel from slipping.

 

[LCR1]

Funny how everyone tries to compare regen to driving a manual. In a manual I push the clutch in and "regen" stops how do you stop regen during an emergency in a tesla?

 

[Lloyd]

Funny how everyone tries to compare regen to driving a manual. In a manual I push the clutch in and "regen" stops how do you stop regen during an emergency in a tesla?

Give the car a little juice until the acceleration is ZERO.