[UPDATED] 2 die in Tesla crash - NHTSA reports driver seat occupied

[SMAlset]

Do you know if it's common to find this after accidents? I'm guessing in most cases where accidents are serious enough to kill people, the victims are not conscious or mobile enough to do any moving between seats. The victim in the passenger seat was obviously not going anywhere with the injuries you mentioned, and it would seem highly unlikely the owner was in the driver's seat next to him, didn't sustain similar injuries, and was able to crawl into the back while attempting to evade the fire.

Does that not suggest the owner wasn't in the front seat when the accident occurred? Would the back seat not be an appropriate place for someone who has consumed enough alcohol to have twice the legal BAC?


gangzoom saying this investigation is wasted time and effort, well that feels like a very premature assessment. There would seem to be many unanswered questions worthy of investigation.

Drunk drivers will many times, as seen in the news, walk away from an accident with others in their vehicle perishing from the impact. Weird I know and so unfair on a moral level. Wasn’t this the case with that “affluenza defense” kid’s accident? Killed all 5 friends with him and got off of serious prisontime only to flee to Mexico with his mom to party down there when located? When I had drivers ed decades ago when we got to the driving while drunk portion, this was mentioned even back then to our class. Something maybe about not being aware so much of their surroundings and road conditions and having a very relaxed body due to the intoxication.

I don’t see how thinking a 59 year old man with twice the legal amount of alcohol in him was able to sit in the rear and “drive” the car from back there.

 

[AndreP]

Video shows them getting into the front seats before the crash. Futher, the steering wheel was reportedly deformed which indicates someone in the driver's seat seat. Conversely, there is no visible damage to the driver's seat back frame to indicate it was impacted by a rear passenger.
Tesla’s Autopilot may not have been available at the time of the "driverless" Texas crash

Tesla claims someone was in the driver’s seat in deadly Texas crash

A skull fracture in the owner doesn't seem overly consistent with the dynamics of a frontal crash, especially if seat belts weren't used

@RadioGraphics

Motor vehicle collisions cause substantial mortality, morbidity, and expense worldwide. Certain types of injuries are more likely to result from frontal versus side-impact collisions, and knowledge of these specific patterns and why they occur aids in accurate and efficient diagnosis of...

pubs.rsna.org

A deformed steering wheel is a predictor of thoracic or abdominal injury in a frontal impact as the body is more likely to be thrust forward while the steering column/wheel are pushed back, and the head is more likely to impact the windshield. A skull fracture in the owner with an absence of thoracic/abdominal injuries alone likely raises questions.

 

[ThomasD]

Fire fractures

Because of the extreme heat, the muscle, tendons, and soft tissue are charred, resulting in exposure of the underlying bones to heat, with resultant heat-induced fractures. Skull fractures are usually seen on the temporal bones,

 

[mongo]

A skull fracture in the owner doesn't seem overly consistent with the dynamics of a frontal crash, especially if seat belts weren't used

@RadioGraphics

Motor vehicle collisions cause substantial mortality, morbidity, and expense worldwide. Certain types of injuries are more likely to result from frontal versus side-impact collisions, and knowledge of these specific patterns and why they occur aids in accurate and efficient diagnosis of...

pubs.rsna.org

A deformed steering wheel is a predictor of thoracic or abdominal injury in a frontal impact as the body is more likely to be thrust forward while the steering column/wheel are pushed back, and the head is more likely to impact the windshield. A skull fracture in the owner with an absence of thoracic/abdominal injuries alone likely raises questions.

Deformation of the sterring wheel requires an object in in frontseat to deform it, in reference to this:

and it would seem highly unlikely the owner was in the driver's seat next to him,

And there were neck injuries (not just fire induced @ThomasD ):

 

[SMAlset]

I didn’t mention other injuries to the bodies as I don’t know the significance of them but the bone and skull fractures were obvious. Too bad the Automotive News article doesn't include the various offical reports and autopsies like Bloomberg’s article did. Hopefully people were able to click on that Bloomberg link as a free one article and scroll down to the reports.

At first upon reading I wondered if seat belts were used especially for front seat passenger but if they weren’t they would have been subjected to the seat belt chimes going off so I think they probably were. A high speed impact, which I think is still assumed, with seat belt on could still damage the rib cage and organs and depending on how the front of the car struck the tree (maybe more on passenger side?) could have broken leg and arm bones during impact if bracing I suppose. If the driver wearing a seat belt subsequently freed himself to move to the back, the seat belt would have retracted so if not consumed by fire could have made it look like there never was a driver there. Even if dazed by the impact I think it’s possible there was time for the driver to come to before the battery pack reached thermal runaway based on other accidents. I don’t believe this was a “driverless” ride however.

I think the NTSB report will address how they believe from evidence the body injuries occurred. I’ve read one or two of the previous Tesla NTSB final reports and was quite impressed at the depth of coverage on various aspects of car and individuals’ behavior and health, that would include the owner’s overall current health status whether pertinent to the cause of the crash or not since it’s in the autopsy.

Hopefully car data can be retrieved, but not a given due to state of car and unknown what got sent to the mothership before losing connection.

 

[AndreP]

Deformation of the sterring wheel requires an object in in frontseat to deform it, in reference to this:

And there were neck injuries (not just fire induced @ThomasD ):
View attachment 705244

I don't think neck injuries suggest much about position in the vehicle, passengers in the rear of a vehicle are just as likely to experience whiplash etc.

On the flip side, the lack of major abdominal/chest/thoracic injuries seems to not suggest an impact that would deform the steering wheel -- the passenger seat victim's injuries would appear more consistent with that. The huge disparity in severity of injuries between the front passenger seat victim and the rear seat owner seems suspect.


There are so many things that could have happened, and the investigation + continued interpretation of the findings are certainly warranted.

 

[Rice&Curry]

To be fair, it's not proven he's the driver, but trying to avoid a DUI would give a fairly strong incentive to move out of the driver's seat.

Dr. Watson, you got a point - this never crossed my mind

 

[SMAlset]

Dr. Watson, you got a point - this never crossed my mind

That only makes sense to use as an excuse if you can get out. I think fire and smoke coming into the cabin with trees blocking door exit was the only immediate thought on his mind at that point. Being a doctor he knew the ramifications better than anyone if he couldn’t escape. I don’t think laying fault for the accident was a consideration. Maybe if the car wasn’t on fire but not the case. I see him dazed after the crash, checking on his friend who he could see was dead and then a panic to escape once the smoke started entering the cabin. Fire just ended everything.

His skull injury was on the right side, so not airbag related, he was a tall guy so wouldn’t be surprised if he hit his head on the overhead glass when the car hit the trees.

 

[stopcrazypp]

That only makes sense to use as an excuse if you can get out. I think fire and smoke coming into the cabin with trees blocking door exit was the only immediate thought on his mind at that point. Being a doctor he knew the ramifications better than anyone if he couldn’t escape. I don’t think laying fault for the accident was a consideration. Maybe if the car wasn’t on fire but not the case. I see him dazed after the crash, checking on his friend who he could see was dead and then a panic to escape once the smoke started entering the cabin. Fire just ended everything.

His skull injury was on the right side, so not airbag related, he was a tall guy so wouldn’t be surprised if he hit his head on the overhead glass when the car hit the trees.

That was my first assumption also, but the DUI angle just adds another motivation on top of that (in case the car was not on fire or smoking yet when he crashed). It's still far more plausible than the theory the media was throwing about doing the "no driver" stunt. He had only one friend with him and there is no evidence he was participating in social media, so I don't see motivation to pull a "no driver" stunt.

 

[MikeyC]

Autopsy report of the driver is interesting. Skull fracture and C7 fracture are listed as blunt force trauma. Not sure if someone with those injuries could move from the front to the back seat or if they'd even be conscious. Kinda wish I hadn't read the report because it looks like the poor guy had a prostate mass, kidney cancer, and what looks to be a pickled liver. Being a doctor, he likely knew about his condition. Wonder if that caused him to be a bit more "carefree" or take more risks. Either way, my heart sinks for both occupants.

Mike

 

[Matias]

I feel that this discussion is macabre

 

[AndreP]

That was my first assumption also, but the DUI angle just adds another motivation on top of that (in case the car was not on fire or smoking yet when he crashed). It's still far more plausible than the theory the media was throwing about doing the "no driver" stunt. He had only one friend with him and there is no evidence he was participating in social media, so I don't see motivation to pull a "no driver" stunt.

Well the wives say they were discussing the self-driving features of the car and then went out to test drive, the owner might have wanted to show it off to his friend. For every one person doing this stuff and posting it on YouTube, you'd need to imagine there are many more doing it but not providing video evidence.

Getting into the front seat is Step 1 in the process of the "no driver" stunt as the person would need to buckle the seat belt and activate the weight sensor to make anything work, but that doesn't mean he didn't activate it and then immediately start moving to the back seat. He could have been in the process of moving from front to back when the vehicle crashed, who even knows. It'll be interesting to see the final report and conclusions reached by the investigators.

 

[DarkandStormy]

... and now we learn the driver was drunk...

Victim of Tesla crash in Texas had alcohol level exceeding legal limit

One of the two victims of a fatal crash involving a Tesla car in Texas had a blood-alcohol level that exceeded the legal driving limit, according to an autopsy report.

www.reuters.com

Shame on news reporters.

The autopsy report contradicts what you're implying - that Varner was the driver, drunk, and climbed into the back seat to avoid a DUI.

Maybe wait & follow the facts. Has anyone confirmed Varner was the driver? And you're trying to say shame on news reporters?

 

[Terminator857]

I read a report that there was a video of the owner getting in on driver's side. Doesn't the report say both were drunk?

 

[SMAlset]

I read a report that there was a video of the owner getting in on driver's side. Doesn't the report say both were drunk?

Texas rules .08 is legally drunk. Owner has .173 in his blood and the passenger with reported one glass of white wine at dinner, .075.

 

[AndreP]

Doing some search around the web about this accident, I came across a Reddit post that mentions the owner William Varner had a broken neck

The autopsy report lists a C7 fracture, and this person said the first responders immediately documented that Varner was in the back seat with a broken/twisted neck. A C7 fracture would result in paralysis of the lower body, and finding a vehicle with nobody in the driver's seat + an occupant in the back seat with a visibly broken neck would be why they're 100% certain there was no driver at the time of the crash.

It'll be good to see the final report, but I'm leaning towards there being no chance Varner moved from the driver's seat to the back seat after the crash. If anything, maybe he was climbing from the front seat to the back when the crash occurred.

 

[MikeyC]

Or there was a third person (driver) who escaped. Else, how to we explain the deformed steering wheel/column? Also, I'm no medical expert but I don't think a fractured C7 necessarily means paralysis: you can fracture the C7 and not sever the spinal cord. I suspect a drunk person trying to escape from a fire might still be able to move around with a skull and vertebrae fracture.

Mike

 

[EVNow]

His skull injury was on the right side, so not airbag related, he was a tall guy so wouldn’t be surprised if he hit his head on the overhead glass when the car hit the trees.

Do the reports say anything about them being belted or not ?

 

[Soul Surfer]

As a retired I.T. exec involved in more software development initiatives than I can ever recall, I have always said that this is just not ready for prime time. As long as the app relies on both visual, sensor and GPS cues to figure out its driving, the risks will remain high. Until the roads and other vehicles are all networked, I doubt we will ever achieve a higher confidence rate.

Yikes! talk about my street-cred, taking a beating, . Sorry friends, I can’t help the I.T. in me still.

 

[SMAlset]

Do the reports say anything about them being belted or not ?

I don't think so from memory of reading the reports sometime ago. Thought that was going to have to come from Tesla if possible due to the burnt condition of the bodies so seatbelt bruising couldn't be observed postmortem and the interior of the car including seatbelts were destroyed by the fire. The autopsies just were released so that may or may not shed some light based on internal injuries. I know the focus here of discussion is whether something indicates if the owner was still in the driver's seat or not on impact.

If the owner's skull fracture did occur by hitting his head on the glass roof in an upward body movement upon impact, would it make sense he could have fractured his C7 at the same time? Thinking compression injury. You can fracture your skull and still be okay, happened to me as a kid in a car accident when the car overturned a few times. No seatbelts back then either. The report did describe the skull and neck fracture as blunt force trauma in his case.

I don't know if his C7 fracture necessarily indicated spinal cord damage and motor impairment but then a person with medical background reviewing the report would be better to answer our questions on this. Maybe a paramedic out there can educate us?