[UPDATED] 2 die in Tesla crash - NHTSA reports driver seat occupied

[stopcrazypp]

So you accept that? Batteries should not burst into flames. It is not common for Tesla batteries to burst into flames when in a crash, but you say it is? Data does not support that.

It does when cells and the pack is punctured. Wikipedia has a decent compilation.

Plug-in electric vehicle fire incidents - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In pictures, the front of the car was melted, but the front motor is clearly seen not pushed back into the battery pack. It does not appear that frontal impact caused the battery pack to experience deformation. Someone posted that the storm drain extrusion above the ground was enough to puncture the pack. That storm drain cover shows very little if any indication that it was hit. We need to worry about what someone can do something about (designing batteries so they don't burst into flames)

As per above link, Tesla already added armor plating to the bottom of the pack in the Model S/X after some incidents from road debris. But in a high speed crash, that doesn't help. Also, Tesla designed things to be compartmentalized in the Model S/X to slow the spread of fire.

As for battery cells that don't catch on fire, the higher density chemistry Tesla uses is flammable and that is just the tradeoff of higher energy density. There are lower density cells (like the LFP batteries using in Chinese made Model 3s) that are less likely to catch on fire.

Outside of making the car into a tank, there isn't really much you can do to make it so the car 100% can't have its pack puncture in a crash (and battery catching fire) at the speeds it can travel.

and not what we cannot do anything about (idiots trying to drive from the backseat).

Actually there are many ways to make it much harder and the media had gone wild discussing it. One Tesla can do just with an update is using the seat weight sensor. The other is using infrared cameras like other automakers are using. Tesla can actually start incorporating some of this using the conventional cabin cameras (that is now in all Tesla after the most recent Model S/X refresh). While conventional cameras may not be able to do as good a job of detecting if the driver is paying attention, detecting if there is a live person in the seat should be a fairly simple task (person detection is a very common in cheap security cameras).

 

[buttershrimp]

I just listened (late) to the conference call because of Gary black tweet about accident details from call... I had to listen myself...

I actually thought Tesla did a good job on the vast majority of the call... with the exception of the explanation of the wreck. It was an awful job by the Team, from the long quiet pause to the answer... this should not have been a hard question to answer, but if you are doing to list random autopilot facts, you need to paint a picture that doesn’t confuse things further
I could tell if :
- the driver used cruise control?
- guys died from a wreck at 30 mph?
- The car safely came to a stop after driver unbuckled car? what?

i listened to it 3 times, it’s confusing AF. PR needed. I’m officially a believer in the Tesla needs a PR specialist narrative.

lucky for me... I came home and watched Bloomberg and they gave really great analysis and brought To life why we are all so excited about Tesla ...

 

[JHCCAZ]

So you accept that? Batteries should not burst into flames. It is not common for Tesla batteries to burst into flames when in a crash, but you say it is? Data does not support that.

In pictures, the front of the car was melted, but the front motor is clearly seen not pushed back into the battery pack. It does not appear that frontal impact caused the battery pack to experience deformation. Someone posted that the storm drain extrusion above the ground was enough to puncture the pack. That storm drain cover shows very little if any indication that it was hit. We need to worry about what someone can do something about (designing batteries so they don't burst into flames) and not what we cannot do anything about (idiots trying to drive from the backseat).

Of all the discussion topics regarding the accident (my preferred theory is a simple launch demo gone bad with an extremely unfortunate set of complications in the trees), I think I'm most concerned about the ability to exit quickly and without needing to know or remember any unusual procedures.

In this incident, being wedged between trees was a massive complication. If the rear doors or hatch were clear but not openable due to disconnected power, and further if the last backup release was there but unknown to the owner, that's a very, very important "edge case" that should be addressed. I'll not engage in 20/20 hindsight opinions. We don't know much if anything about the post-crash condition, conscious state or escape-attempt actions of either occupant.

Tesla crash fires may be quite uncommon - I don't know enough to judge - but obviously we've seen examples. I now plan to learn as much as I can about how to exit the car in different ways, and look into an under-seat extinguisher+holder that's at least somewhat effective on Li-ion fires. But something that works on a cellphone is likely to be heavily outmatched by a Tesla pack.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Of all the discussion topics regarding the accident (my preferred theory is a simple launch demo gone bad with an extremely unfortunate set of complications in the trees), I think I'm most concerned about the ability to exit quickly and without needing to know or remember any unusual procedures.

In this incident, being wedged between trees was a massive complication. If the rear doors or hatch were clear but not openable due to disconnected power, and further if the last backup release was there but unknown to the owner, that's a very, very important "edge case" that should be addressed. I'll not engage in 20/20 hindsight opinions. We don't know much if anything about the post-crash condition, conscious state or escape-attempt actions of either occupant.

Tesla crash fires may be quite uncommon - I don't know enough to judge - but obviously we've seen examples. I now plan to learn as much as I can about how to exit the car in different ways, and look into an under-seat extinguisher+holder that's at least somewhat effective on Li-ion fires. But something that works on a cellphone is likely to be heavily outmatched by a Tesla pack.

Yes, knowing (and informing other people that regularly ride in your car) how to use all the backup releases is important. Also having an emergency hammer tool (which usually also comes with a seat belt cutter) probably is helpful too in case the doors are too deformed to open.

I doubt the extinguisher is that helpful, especially one small enough to fit in the cabin without being in the way. If the pack catches on fire, copious amounts of water (like the amount from a fire truck or hydrant) is going to be required. Getting out of and away from the vehicle should be first priority.

 

[jsmay311]

I just listened (late) to the conference call because of Gary black tweet about accident details from call... I had to listen myself...

I actually thought Tesla did a good job on the vast majority of the call... with the exception of the explanation of the wreck. It was an awful job by the Team, from the long quiet pause to the answer... this should not have been a hard question to answer, but if you are doing to list random autopilot facts, you need to paint a picture that doesn’t confuse things further
I could tell if :
- the driver used cruise control?
- guys died from a wreck at 30 mph?
- The car safely came to a stop after driver unbuckled car? what?

i listened to it 3 times, it’s confusing AF. PR needed. I’m officially a believer in the Tesla needs a PR specialist narrative.

lucky for me... I came home and watched Bloomberg and they gave really great analysis and brought To life why we are all so excited about Tesla ...

Because of the poor audio quality of the call and misinterpretation of what Lars actually said, Electrek is actually reporting that Lars confirmed TACC involvement in the crash. Of course, that's the exact opposite of what he actually said. Electrek goes on to say that Autopilot was involved because TACC is an "Autopilot feature". Hmm.

Here's the Electrek article and their faulty analysis based on the incorrect transcription from the earnings call:
Tesla releases more details about fatal crash in Texas, but there are still a lot of questions unanswered - Electrek
Incorrect quote from Electrek article:

"Autopilot was involved in that drive (not the crash apparently). Maybe not Autosteer, but Tesla has advertised TACC, its traffic-aware cruise control, as an Autopilot feature.
Now it doesn’t mean it was involved in the crash, but it does explain a few things.
It looks like the driver did try to engage Autopilot with adaptive cruise control, but only cruise control could come up and then he unbuckled his seatbelt – presumably to jump on the backseat as stated by a family member.
Therefore, it looks like the theory that they went on a drive to “test out autonomous features” is a real possibility even though Tesla’s Autopilot features shouldn’t be described as “autonomous driving” and it looks like the Autopilot driver-assist features were misused.
Now it looks like the driver might have misunderstood the capability of Tesla’s Autopilot features since it looks like they worked as intended but were misused if he tried to jump in the backseat.
If TACC indeed came to a stop as described by Moravy, then we still don’t know what happened after and leading to the actual crash."

Here's the Youtube video with the source audio from the earnings call:

 

[SMAlset]

Here’s an example of why the MSM comes off unfair when it comes to reporting Tesla crashes and fires. Saw this story the other day on ABC News. 6 people died when the vehicle they were in crashed and all 6 died in the fire. No mention of the make/model.

6 dead in Georgia after passenger van crashes, bursts into flames

Six people are dead after an accident caused a van to catch fire on a Georgia highway.

abcnews.go.com

 

[ev_go123]

Because of the poor audio quality of the call and misinterpretation of what Lars actually said, Electrek is actually reporting that Lars confirmed TACC involvement in the crash. Of course, that's the exact opposite of what he actually said. Electrek goes on to say that Autopilot was involved because TACC is an "Autopilot feature". Hmm.

Here's the Electrek article and their faulty analysis based on the incorrect transcription from the earnings call:
Tesla releases more details about fatal crash in Texas, but there are still a lot of questions unanswered - Electrek
Incorrect quote from Electrek article:


Here's the Youtube video with the source audio from the earnings call:

Oooff, Electrek got completely that wrong. Honestly listing to that call, it was not that hard to understand. Pretty ironic considering Electrek called out another publication for "obviously bad reporting" in the same article...

 

[mongo]

What was actually said was that no belts were fastened post-crash. They don't know if they were fastened at the time of the crash yet.

That does tell us that it is highly unlikely that they were trying to bypass the safeties. As do other facts like the speed.

Indeed, and I was incorrect in attributing the statement to Musk.

To the general discussion:
Found to be unbuckled is important for two reasons: the first being it directly contradicts the reports of both persons being buckled in (which lent plausibility to the CR/ AP based crash scenario). And second, the lack of the driver's belt being buckled reduces the likelyhood that AP was active.
Edit: 3rd: With belts unbuckled, position post crash is not guaranteed to be position at the time of crash.

As to the remainder of the statement:
Testing at that location showed Autosteer would not engage.
Testing also showed if TACC was engaged, it would only get to 30 MPH.

So, based on post crash testing in a different vehicle under (one assumes) multiple attempts: AP does not fit the crash signature.

Transcript from fool.com posted 30 minutes agoTesla (TSLA) Q1 2021 Earnings Call Transcript | The Motley Fool :

Yeah. Thanks, Elon. So I was just saying, we're committed to safety in all our designs, and that's number one in what we do here. Regarding the crash in Houston, specifically, we worked directly with the local authorities, NTSB and NHTSA, wherever applicable and whenever they reach out to us for help directly on the engineering level and whatever else we can support.

In that vein, we did a study with them over the past week to understand what happened in that particular crash. And what we've learned from that effort was that Autosteer did not and could not engage on the road condition that -- as it was designed. Our adaptive cruise control only engage when a driver was buckled in about 5 miles per hour. And it only accelerated to 30 miles per hour with the distance before the car crashed.

As well adaptive cruise control disengage the cars fully to complete to a stop when the driver's seatbelt was unbuckled. Through further investigation of the vehicle and accident remains, we inspected the car with NTSB and NHTSA and the local police and were able to find that the steering wheel was indeed deformed so there must -- leading to a likelihood that someone was in the driver's seat at the time of the crash and all seatbelts post crash were found to be unbuckled. We're unable to recover the data from the SD card at the time of impact, but the local authorities are working on doing that, and we await their report. As I said, we continue to hold safety in a high regard and look to improve our products in the future through this kind of data and other information from the field.

 

[WaitingForRoof]

This is starting to remind me of the time when a Tesla Model S crashed and the doors got jammed with the drivers/passengers trying to escape and witnesses outside trying to break them out but ultimately all passengers died from the car catching on fire.

Source: Bloomberg

Not saying that’s what happened.. pure speculation from facts so far.

 

[qdeathstar]

I'm really surprised that more people posting here are not more concerned with why and how the battery burst into flames. Supposedly.

That should not happen. Instead, I read a thousand posts talking about how a doctor got in the back seat and did a bunch of tricks to get the driving assistance features to drive into a tree. Common sense is commonly uncommon.

a car hit a tree at high speed. Fires are something that happens during high speed crashes. That is typical.

Now, you are correct, Tesla vehicles burst into flames less often than their ICE counterparts, but I’m not shocked or surprised this happened. I think the batteries got squished from the sides as the trees acted like a wedge. The incline plane at work.

 

[qdeathstar]

Personally I think it if is unacceptable you cannot get out of a Tesla easily in an emergency without 12v power. I think all the doors should have an emergency release in an obvious spot.

 

[designrs]

 

[qdeathstar]

View attachment 657394View attachment 657395

and the back seat? Also, I feel like you should know where the emergency release is without needing to read the manual.

and obviously there is no emergency release for first responders.

 

[designrs]

obviously there is no emergency release for first responders.

This is a valid point. “Pull Here For Emergency” would make sense but it would probably freak people out. It’s something that you might see on an airplane or race car.

 

[mongo]

and the back seat? Also, I feel like you should know where the emergency release is without needing to read the manual.

and obviously there is no emergency release for first responders.

Rear seats are not guaranteed exitable on many cars: child locks, 1.5 door truck cabs, two door coupes ...

External emergency release means the car is never secure/ locked. Plus, responders can break the glass.

 

[designrs]

1. The fire did not take four hours to put out. It took 2-3 minutes to suppress. After 5-10 minutes they were just putting out random little fires springing up. For four hours they were just putting "a little bit of water" on the pack to ensure that it stayed cool. Source: the fire chief.

2. The estimated crash speed is 60-100mph. If the car had *zero* rollout and accelerated *right* until it left the road and did not decelerate *at all* after leaving the road (120m), at 60mph it would have pulled over 0,4G and taken 9 seconds, and at 100mph it would have pulled over 0,8G and taken 5 seconds. Any rollout, cessation of acceleration, or deceleration after leaving the road decreases the times and increases the G-forces. Let's be clear: the *laws of physics* say this car was floored. Anyone who is here to say the laws of physics are wrong, please exit stage right.

3. No, you cannot activate AP without road lines, or at least something that looks like road lines (which does not exist on this road). Yes, it has been confirmed from Tesla that AP was *not* on.

4. There's a T intersection *right around the curve* that the owner would have had to disengaged autopilot for anyway.

5. Cruise control and AP take about 30 seconds and over 400m to accelerate up to 60mph. They take about 50 seconds and over 1200m to accelerate up to 100mph. Over an order of magnitude more distance.

And about half a dozen other things wrong with this. Let's be clear: the sextuagenarians late on a Saturday night were not out filming a TikTok video. They were showing off the performance of their car and lost control on the curve. Period.

 

[designrs]

External emergency release means the car is never secure/ locked. Plus, responders can break the glass.

It could be locking. Most cars will unlock when they sense impact.

Official “First Responders” with equipment to break glass may not be the first on the scene. Having to break glass will slow down the average person significantly when time matters most.

 

[designrs]

Lesson learned here. If you are going to help after a crash, grab something to break glass.

 

[Iain]

If you ever give someone a ride in your Tesla you need to tell them how to unlock the door because 9/10 they will open it with the emergency handle. Bottom line is you don’t need to read a manual to figure out how to open the door.

 

[Az_Rael]

What is the point of this immediate datalog to Tesla if not to facilitate emergency responses, where this data could be useful? (and AP is pretty irrelevant)

You assume Tesla collects that immediate uploaded log for any reason but their own CYA and internal data tracking purposes. Tesla very much cares if AP was on in a crash, especially a high profile event like this.