[UPDATED] 2 die in Tesla crash - NHTSA reports driver seat occupied

[S4WRXTTCS]

You mean like the majority of the speculation in this thread?

The photo posted in response to my comment shows clearly shows the seat was upright so that discounts my speculation.

You may feel safer in your Tesla than any other vehicle. I don't.

Avoidance of an accident vs survivability of an accident are two different things. Personally, I'm not sure where my Tesla falls in either of those categories. As an older driver I find the reliance on me touching the screen accurately for a number of important driving functions is a major distraction and distracted drivers have more accidents.

As for surviving in a crash, I am not convinced of the superiority of my Tesla over my old Prius V which at least had curtain airbag rear seat protection in a side-impact collision. That is something that is important to not only parents but also to me because on long trips I travel in the back seat so I can work while not doing my turn at the wheel. The fact that my 'wonderful' Tesla has this safety engineering compromise and is a downgrade from my 2012 Prius is a major disappointment.

One of the reasons I've been reading this thread so closely is concern about my ability to get out of my car in an emergency (stemminf from my belief that the driver moved to the back seat when unable to exit from the front doors.) At least now I know where the hidden back seat door release is in my ModelY and will modify that to make it more accessible. The odds are much greater than zero that I'll be in that backseat in an accident.

I'm not seeing any difference in the rear passenger airbag protection between a Prius V, and Tesla Model 3/Y.

They both have only curtains.

I think you missed the fact that they're there because it's not really clear from the diagram, but if you look at crash test photos you'll see them.

 

[qdeathstar]

OTOH we have seen lot of well sourced media stories fall apart.

touche

 

[SMAlset]

As the tweeter says it was created to post anonymous account to post specifically this information about this accident.

So, duh, it is new and posts about this info. Its a burner account.

This in itself doesn't make it either fake or genuine.



Nah. As I said - assume this is a 15 year old kid (perhaps a fan of Musk) - who gets this information from his friend who lives in that lane. He is angry with the police for *not* disclosing this information to the press - and makes some assumptions about intentions of the constable.

Somewhere in the comment section and replies to people’s tweets, the OP said he was an 18-year old who drives a Tesla. No connection to Tesla other than that. Conjecture on my part but I’m guessing he lives in the area and has a friend that shared the info with him. I got the feeling from his posts that it was first hand. While his tweet sounds biased against the constable, can’t say his opinion is that far off from comments on here about what the constable’s accident statements were apparently without knowing much about the car and its functions. The fire scene described was quickly corrected by fire dept. but unfortunately widely reported as a blaze that consumed the car for four hours. Damage done in the press. I’m not from the Houston area so no real input as to how the constable is viewed in his job down there. I’m hoping the preliminary report will at least mention if there was video captured by someone and basically what it indicated about driver position and indication if this was a launch gone bad at high speed with driver in control (or suppose to be).

I know early comments reported from the police were that the wives indicated the guys were going to test drive, and autopilot was mentioned earlier in the evening. The BIL of one of the guys was reported as having said he saw(? Or was it assumed?) the owner jump in the rear seat and there was something again said about autopilot. That comment I think started the whole assumption these guys were rigging the car to override controls and that will hopefully be addressed by actual witness statements and any security video from neighboring homes.

As a wife I don’t think I would be too comfortable if my husband told me he and a friend were going to do launches of his car on a residential street, knowing how quickly the acceleration is. Saying you’re going to demonstrate autopilot on the car sure would sound safer and more reasonable to me.

 

[Dan D.]

The fire scene described was quickly corrected by fire dept. but unfortunately widely reported as a blaze that consumed the car for four hours. Damage done in the press. I’m not from the Houston area so no real input as to how the constable is viewed in his job down there. I’m hoping the preliminary report will at least mention if there was video captured by someone and basically what it indicated about driver position and indication if this was a launch gone bad at high speed.

But as has also been pointed out, the fire that consumed the car completely with puddles of metal occurred in much less time than four hours. So not altogether comforting that it wasn't blazing for four hours but accomplished the damage quickly.

 

[SMAlset]

But as has also been pointed out, the fire that consumed the car completely with puddles of metal occurred in much less time than four hours. So not altogether comforting that it wasn't blazing for four hours but accomplished the damage quickly.

No doubt li-ion battery fires burn hot. Number of news stories about phone battery fires as well illustrating it.

I will add the ICE suv that lost control and rolled on a highway recently (linked to earlier in thread) resulted in a fire that killed and burned 6 inside and injured additional passengers in the suv that witnesses managed to get out. Saw an update on the story yesterday I think that said the van was burned to a shell of itself so not really that different as to a gasoline fire still destroying the vehicle.

 

[Dan D.]

No doubt li-ion battery fires burn hot. Number of news stories about phone battery fires as well illustrating it.

I will add the ICE suv that lost control and rolled on a highway recently (linked to earlier in thread) resulted in a fire that killed and burned 6 inside and injured additional passengers in the suv that witnesses managed to get out. Saw an update on the story yesterday I think that said the van was burned to a shell of itself so not really that different as to a gasoline fire still destroying the vehicle.

Not the point. I was responding to the specific initial media report of this accident that the fire department took four hours to extinguish the fire when it took just a few minutes of intense effort followed by hours of cooling. That discrepancy annoys some people. I don't care about other accidents, this one is the issue, and how it was intense enough to destroy the car in less time than the initial reports.

 

[EVNow]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1388101250043023363

Rereading some of the parts - what is clear is (lets assume the twitter user is truthful)
- Its about some video. Probably security video.
- But the informant is *not* a resident of one of those houses. But the informant has seen the video. This is the reason the informant doesn't have the video nor does the person know whether the video has been given to the police / NTSB etc.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1388125382893871106

https://twitter.com/x/status/1388128541921980417

What this means is the informant could be someone who works at one of the houses on the street but is known to the tweeter. This could be a house keeper (for eg.) who works both for one of the houses in the street as well as the tweeter's house. It could also be someone at the security agency which maintains those cameras and thus had access to the video ?

 

[SMAlset]

Not the point. I was responding to the specific initial media report of this accident that the fire department took four hours to extinguish the fire when it took just a few minutes of intense effort followed by hours of cooling. That discrepancy annoys some people. I don't care about other accidents, this one is the issue, and how it was intense enough to destroy the car in less time than the initial reports.

I got both of your comments angles I thought. As to the speed and heat generated guess I don’t find it surprising. This location also supposedly had lots of other tinder on the ground and among trees but yes fast, hot fire. The point I was mentioning with the suv was that any car fire can quickly consume the vehicle, incinerate people and completely destroy the vehicle. Kind of same end result. I suppose hydrogen vehicles that get an air leak would explode, and ignite I think as well.

If solid state batteries become a viable product for cars, that sounds like it will address the fire aspect. I know there are companies working on making li-ion batteries less or non flammable.

Whether a hot, fast fire or a cooler one, not a pleasant thing to witness or come upon. Fire is going to suck oxygen out for any passenger, burning battery chemicals and car upholstery and plastic parts making for toxic air and smoke making it difficult to see if you have an escape path.

 

[MikeyC]

All cars have lots of stored energy in some form. The problem with batteries is that they have their own "built in" ignition source so when damaged they are probably more prone to ignite/reignite. Perhaps in the future some technology can be implemented to mitigate that such as some mechanical or chemical way to segment off portions of the pack or some sort of emergency release that first responders could use to "eject" the whole pack and drag it out from under the vehicle. Just some dumb ideas: engineers could probably find better solutions.

Mike

 

[stopcrazypp]

All cars have lots of stored energy in some form. The problem with batteries is that they have their own "built in" ignition source so when damaged they are probably more prone to ignite/reignite. Perhaps in the future some technology can be implemented to mitigate that such as some mechanical or chemical way to segment off portions of the pack or some sort of emergency release that first responders could use to "eject" the whole pack and drag it out from under the vehicle. Just some dumb ideas: engineers could probably find better solutions.

Mike

If you read the fire chief's comment, they do have a way to move the vehicle to better cool the pack so they wouldn't have to be there for 4 hours. They only didn't do that in this case due to the need to preserve the scene due to the car having occupants.

Side note: the chief also mentioned there was other fuel (pine sap) from outside due to the proximity with the trees, the scene definitely was far from a ideal place to prevent reignition.

 

[Silicon Desert]

Well, that's the way it happened. Perhaps the windows were thicker back then, but the basic principle still applies.

yes, I would not want to try and compare my Model X frameless window to one in my 69 Nova in a frame that is pretty hard to kick out. Pretty sure I can kick out the side window in my X if I needed.

 

[Silicon Desert]

You may feel safer in your Tesla than any other vehicle. I don't.

Hmmm, I am just a little baffled by that statement. If so, why did you buy a Tesla and drive it by thinking you don't feel as safe as in another car? Maybe I am just assuming you have a Tesla, but you don't?

I guess I feel safer in a Tesla than a Ford Pinto

 

[Dan D.]

yes, I would not want to try and compare my Model X frameless window to one in my 69 Nova in a frame that is pretty hard to kick out. Pretty sure I can kick out the side window in my X if I needed.

Now try it with a ruptured spleen and fractured tibia. There's a reason car crash victims aren't all running around after crashing into a tree. If there's nobody around to help the best you can hope for is your door opens easily and you crawl out before the fire gets you. You might be able to climb out a broken window if it's already broken or there's a tool right there (not in the glove box). For most people there is no chance of manually pushing up a falcon door even if you unlatch it.

 

[Electrph]

Now try it with a ruptured spleen and fractured tibia. There's a reason car crash victims aren't all running around after crashing into a tree. If there's nobody around to help the best you can hope for is your door opens easily and you crawl out before the fire gets you. You might be able to climb out a broken window if it's already broken or there's a tool right there (not in the glove box). For most people there is no chance of manually pushing up a falcon door even if you unlatch it.

not to mention being in shock .. pages and pages of this thread people stating what they or others would / would not do after a traumatic event / injuries .. I have watched people uninjured literally walk around in circles when in shock .. it is extremely variable / unpredictable how most ppl will react to physical and/or emotional trauma unlke movies and tv dramas

 

[SMAlset]

not to mention being in shock .. pages and pages of this thread people stating what they or others would / would not do after a traumatic event / injuries .. I have watched people uninjured literally walk around in circles when in shock .. it is extremely variable / unpredictable how most ppl will react to physical and/or emotional trauma unlke movies and tv dramas

Very true. When I was a teenager and passenger in front seat of a car that was hit head on at a high rate of speed, although many feet of braking observed so not sure what estimated speed was at impact, despite being seatbelted in, all I remembered was seeing the car running the red into our left lane turning maneuver and then sitting outside on the grass with others and police talking to everyone. Despite the seatbelt I still had hit the windshield and cracked it (fortunately didn’t go through it). I remember telling people I was fine. Then was told my forehead was cut and I was bleeding. No memory of how I got out of the car and over to the grass. It was Fall, late at night after a dance, and assume we all had coats on that would have helped prevent shock. I would say I was more stunned, maybe unconscious for a number of seconds or minutes, really can’t say for sure. Picture bird hitting a window and then coming to later and flying away. Definitely had a hole in my memory of the actual crash and number of minutes after that.

My experience leads me to believe the driver likely experienced something similar and lost some valuable time. I didn’t break any bones. Suppose we won’t know their physical condition post crash until the final report comes out where autopsy results are included (at least I think based on prior Tesla crashes investigated).

 

[CyberGus]

I guess I feel safer in a Tesla than a Ford Pinto

 

[CyberGus]

Very true. When I was a teenager and passenger in front seat of a car that was hit head on at a high rate of speed...

As a teen, I fell sleep on a long drive that ended in a spectacular rollover of my Datsun B210 (remember Datsun?). It wasn't so much the falling asleep that caused the accident, as much as waking up and realizing I was supposed to be driving a car. Somehow, I ended up with only minor injuries (yes, I was wearing a seatbelt). I had covered my head as I lost control and was never concussed, and thus could recall the full terror in all its glory.

After several flips, the car came to a stop on all fours, with the roof now significantly lower than stock, and all glass broken. The door would not open, so I flung my shoulder into it while pulling the handle, and eventually spun around to kick it, which did the trick. It never occurred to me that I should crawl out any of the broken windows, but then again, the car wasn't on fire.

I was pretty calm about the whole thing for about 10 minutes, until the shock wore off and the pain started to kick in. By the time the EMTs showed up, I was puking on the side of the road.

 

[rxlawdude]

Guess which case I use when teaching business ethics and corporate social responsibility.

 

[Needsdecaf]

Guess which case I use when teaching business ethics and corporate social responsibility.

In grad school, I was assigned to debate the Pinto case. FOR Ford. Man, talk about an uphill battle. Still, I thought that we created a pretty good argument. But I got a good idea what it felt like to be a defense attorney who knows his client is guilty.

 

[rxlawdude]

In grad school, I was assigned to debate the Pinto case. FOR Ford. Man, talk about an uphill battle. Still, I thought that we created a pretty good argument. But I got a good idea what it felt like to be a defense attorney who knows his client is guilty.

My course is an amalgam of ethical issues in the biotech/pharma areas, but the Pinto (and Crown Vic later) cases illustrate how some businesses do their financial calculations with little regard for human life if it's cheaper. Of course, we see this in pharma/biotech, too. For a real eye-opener about the generic drug industry in India, check out Bottle of Lies by Katherine Eban.