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200 kWh Roadster Pack: How is Tesla Pulling This Off?
- Thread starter jackbowers
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- Batteries Roadster 2020
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SDRick
Active Member
Is there any truth that the roadster test drive demo cars utilized two 100Kw batteries sandwiched on top of each other? I would imagine if there was significant new battery density technology it would have been mentioned.
I believe there has been anecdotal evidence of people sitting "high up" in the Roadster which is what started off the whole idea in the first place.
That would freeze sales while people waited for the new tech. Would you buy a new S or X next week if Tesla has talked about significant new battery tech?
Exactly. Tesla is not going to announce even incremental battery improvements in advance in any specific way, only general statements about how battery energy density gradually improves and cost per kWh gradually decreases over time.
That is why Elon said nothing about future battery improvements in energy density/power/cost at the Semi / Roadster unveil event. He merely stated the new Roadster pack size, and didn’t even mention the Semi pack size. What he focused on was vehicle range and acceleration because those are the parameters that people care about and can understand.
If you take a look at the following thread, we're pretty confident that the Semi is <850kWh & <1.7 Wh/mile with Model 3 cell assumptions.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/lets-work-out-the-tesla-semi-truck-technical-specs.102230/
Lets work out the Tesla Semi-Truck Technical Specs
If it indeed true that the Semi and the 2020 Roadster have an improved chemistry, why wasn't it obvious in the Model 3?
skitown
Member
Interesting - I didn't realize the current 100D cars have a double stacked section. Probably exactly what wk057 has documented in this photo!
Teardown of new 100 kWh Tesla battery pack reveals new cooling system and 102 kWh capacity
This article is the source.
All the big battery cars have had that, from the beginning - 85, 90, and 100. The small packs (60, 70, 75, and probably eventually a 100 based 80 or 85) are only fourteen in series, missing both of the front center stacked modules - which is why they have a lower system voltage.
skitown
Member
HillCountryFun
Member
Good data, thanks for pulling it together!
Moderator note: a number of posts in this thread that were a general discussion of Tesla battery pack energy density over the years and in all Tesla car models were not specific to the new Roadster, therefore they have been moved to their own thread at: Is Tesla making progress in improving battery energy density?
The discussion of issues specific to the new Roadster 200kWh battery pack can continue here. Since we have no specifics about that pack — which won’t be available for sale for about 3 years — other than its claimed total capacity and range, we are mostly speculating. That’s fine. But if you want talk about the subject of Tesla pack capacity and cell energy density over the years please use the other thread. Thank you.
The discussion of issues specific to the new Roadster 200kWh battery pack can continue here. Since we have no specifics about that pack — which won’t be available for sale for about 3 years — other than its claimed total capacity and range, we are mostly speculating. That’s fine. But if you want talk about the subject of Tesla pack capacity and cell energy density over the years please use the other thread. Thank you.
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Did you mean: "The discussion of issues specific to the new Roadster 200kWh battery pack can continue here" ?
Edit: all fixed now, leaving this post to avoid temporal paradox issues...
I did, and I’ve corrected my posts, thanks for catching that. I’m going to blame Auto Correct for changing a misspelling of “here” to “there”. 
Edited outtake from a now moved post:
Since basic 5-year-old Tesla rear motors seem up for the job of powering this car (to a peak of 10,000 Nm wheel torque using required gear reduction of ~5:1 to achieve 250mph around peak rpm) using three of them combined, unless they want exceptional efficiency and/or long burst performance, batteries will be a tiny factor only towards total car cost. For sure by 2020, 2170's will cost Tesla under $20K for 200 kWh, 10% or less of sale price. As also in fully loaded Model 3's, by the way, $8K in cells towards a $80K car). Let alone Model S/X P100D if that's possible with 2170's (I'm not sure the same power can be drawn for the same amount of time), $10K in cells for a $150K car.
Batteries becoming such a relative afterthought in terms of production cost management, if by 2020 Tesla were able to purchase new batteries of higher gravimetric energy density (say, double), at triple or quatruple the cost, that'd be TOTALLY worth it for he Roadster. It's supposed to be a performance car after all, not an industrial Power Pack stuck to the proverbial Tesla skateboard? Absolutely no need for bottom of the barrel ultra cheap ass 2170's to make up the 200 kWh. For now of course, there are only vague announcements (based on theorerical or lab research) of batteries offering such ballpark densities.
And even if they always intended to equip the $200K Roadster with >10,000 2170 cells, once a true battery upgrade becomes avialable, it will be an easy cell. Who doesn't want to have a sports car that weighs 500-600 kg less than the bulky original? See what people pay extra for a bit of carbon trim that doesn't weigh any less.
I strongly hope the tech will become available, at any price, to see double or triples densities versus today. It will eventually come down inprice, unless the key cost driver is something like for instance silver which is in relatively tight supply (if you need a lot of it).
Since basic 5-year-old Tesla rear motors seem up for the job of powering this car (to a peak of 10,000 Nm wheel torque using required gear reduction of ~5:1 to achieve 250mph around peak rpm) using three of them combined, unless they want exceptional efficiency and/or long burst performance, batteries will be a tiny factor only towards total car cost. For sure by 2020, 2170's will cost Tesla under $20K for 200 kWh, 10% or less of sale price. As also in fully loaded Model 3's, by the way, $8K in cells towards a $80K car). Let alone Model S/X P100D if that's possible with 2170's (I'm not sure the same power can be drawn for the same amount of time), $10K in cells for a $150K car.
Batteries becoming such a relative afterthought in terms of production cost management, if by 2020 Tesla were able to purchase new batteries of higher gravimetric energy density (say, double), at triple or quatruple the cost, that'd be TOTALLY worth it for he Roadster. It's supposed to be a performance car after all, not an industrial Power Pack stuck to the proverbial Tesla skateboard? Absolutely no need for bottom of the barrel ultra cheap ass 2170's to make up the 200 kWh. For now of course, there are only vague announcements (based on theorerical or lab research) of batteries offering such ballpark densities.
And even if they always intended to equip the $200K Roadster with >10,000 2170 cells, once a true battery upgrade becomes avialable, it will be an easy cell. Who doesn't want to have a sports car that weighs 500-600 kg less than the bulky original? See what people pay extra for a bit of carbon trim that doesn't weigh any less.
I strongly hope the tech will become available, at any price, to see double or triples densities versus today. It will eventually come down inprice, unless the key cost driver is something like for instance silver which is in relatively tight supply (if you need a lot of it).
purplewalt
Active Member
I just looked at the Technical sheets for the new Acura NSX, hybrid sports car.
They have an interesting "T" shape configuration for the electrical components: one longitudinal Power Drive Unit (PDU) between the seats, and one transverse Intelligent Power Unit (IPU) main battery pack behind the seat.
So, if the bottom (main) platform under the main portion of the the floor is a "traditional" single flat battery pack with 2170 cells, and there are some additional packs located similar to the NSX's "T" layout, the total double stacking of two flat packs might NOT be how Tesla has achieved 200kWh power for the R2.
R2 being a brand new design, not constrained by having an ICE and its transmission to fill up the inside of the car platform.
They have an interesting "T" shape configuration for the electrical components: one longitudinal Power Drive Unit (PDU) between the seats, and one transverse Intelligent Power Unit (IPU) main battery pack behind the seat.
So, if the bottom (main) platform under the main portion of the the floor is a "traditional" single flat battery pack with 2170 cells, and there are some additional packs located similar to the NSX's "T" layout, the total double stacking of two flat packs might NOT be how Tesla has achieved 200kWh power for the R2.
R2 being a brand new design, not constrained by having an ICE and its transmission to fill up the inside of the car platform.
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With 2+2 seating, Tesla could add a driveshaft like tunnel to package more cells. The vertical structure could also help with rigidity.
Also, there is no need for it be two packs stacked. It could be one pack with 2 layers of cell modules (too pedantic?).
Other option: Tesla makes taller cells in the future. Only limit I see is the aspect ratio for forming the cell can. This works best with side wall thermal management, but if the cells have a larger center pin, it could conduct heat to the cell bottom.
In stead of 65mm and now 70mm cells, why not 100mm cells? Under the feet there could be 50mm or 65mm cells, to improve seating comfort. Overall more cells will fit the floor. Audi is working on it.
In a Model X, the floor has quite a bit of hidden (cargo) space. Do Teslas need to get any heavier, though?
If you make different sections with different sized cells, it makes balancing... interesting?
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