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> lol yes I charge in the city [yobig]
If you can get some 200 volt+ charge at work, then I fail to see the point of this thread. It is a 100 mile trip based on a 237 mile Standard Charge.
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Sorry, the question I was asking was not "what would happen if I take the battery from 100% to 7% and charge back to 100% daily" , but rather "how many miles will the battery packs actually last before needing replacement? 100k? 200k? 500k? at 500k miles (if they last that long), what kind of range should we be expecting on an 85kWh? 190? 170? 150?"
sigh. I always have a problem phrasing things. I think I say what I mean, but it always gets interpreted the wrong way, and for the most part I can't blame them once it's pointed out to me. I suck at communication.
anywho, yes I can charge at work. it's a 30A J1772. so I don't have any problem with range. I can fly as fast as I want. err I can drive the speed limit if I wanted to (but who does that in real life?) lol.
so again what I meant by the title is "i might decide to drive 200 miles daily, and that's going to rack up a lot of miles really fast. given that, what is the battery lifetime , e.g. how long is this battery really going to last and what will be the noticeable effects like range loss and/or "response" loss (acceleration)?" ....
yea if only one would be built. I thought I read about some plans for building one a bullet train between trenton and NY (well technically its a $150 billion project between washington and boston), but that the section between trenton and NYC would cost about $400 million of that, and it will improve on the current amtrak Acela fast train between trenton and NYC by about 3 minutes total, LOL. $400 million for 3 minute improvement - what a joke - talk about a waste of taxpayer money. I'm all for the boston-washington though. Just that the ratio of cost for the NJ section to time improvement is laughable. why does everything have to cost so much in NJ? god I hate this state. it smells up in north jersey too (i live in south jersey, not that that is any better...lol)
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hey! what's wrong with that? lol
you're lucky I don't put racing stripes on the P85 HAHA I could also have really bright headlights, tint my windows and put a suspension on that lowers the car when driving. oh wait, I do have tinted windows, and the car does have really bright headlights and an air suspension that lowers when driving. DAMMIT lol I'm also planning on updgrading the sound system with some aftermarket stuff eventually (waiting to hear more about Dr. Taras' system and a few other's Reus systems)
wait I know, I could go for spinners, and a neon license plate and some undercarraige lights...that would really top off the 'ghetto jersey P85'
all i'd need then is to go to a tanning salon every day, spend 2 hrs doing my hair, and wear a wife-beater every time I go for a spin to complete the jersey effect.Though that look would be pretty diffcult for me being of pale white ukranian descent and the fact that I'm pretty much bald
I guess I could just lift weights all day and go for some sort of Brock Lesner effect, but then I'd probably not fit in the Model S and have to trade up to a Model X, and that'd totally ruin the effect I'm going for. what to do ... what to do...lol(sad to admit it, but when I was 17-21, I actually *did* have 15%/5% tints, black racing strips, 17" chrome rims, neon license plate and undercarraige lights, lower body extensions, bright fog lights, and three 12" JL subs with a 1500watt amp and 3 1-farad caps, and another 400watt amp for inifinity speakers on my old silver `97 Camaro RS)
deonb
Active Member
Two words: Hyper Loop.
Or is that one word. Or even a word.... Darn it. What is it and how do I buy stock in it??
Don't worry, I found it to be clear but maybe I'm more attuned to the Jersey mind. Your teenage self, however, scares me.
The battery life of a Lithium ion battery depends on several variables. Among these variables are temperature (both operating and storage), Charging rate and depth of charging as well as state of charge (% of capacity to which the battery is charged) during charge cycles. As well as State of Charge Voltage (The voltage of the cells at a given level of charge). In general the battery can be charged through a greater number of charge discharge cycles when the battery is only partially discharged, then recharged. If you drive about 100 miles (representing about 40% of Max charge range of 265 miles) and then recharge, you will get a greater number of charge cycles than if you discharged the battery after driving 200 Miles (representing 80% discharge). The previous example would reduce the rate of degradation by as much as 20% with charging at 40% vs 80% and even greater if the depth of discharge is even shallower (10%-20%). Based on everything that I have read from technical journals regarding the 18650 Lithium cells upon which the 85 Kw battery pack is composed, providing the user follows Tesla's recommendations regarding charging, a 15-25% reduction in capacity after 160,000 to 200,000 miles would be expected. I own a P85 (#810). However, based on the consumption of gas based on 23 miles per gallon and fuel costs of $3.85 average (my ICE autos use premium fuel). The cost of gas for 200,000 miles would be $33,478.26 plus wear and tear on the ICE, transmission, and suspension. The Tesla has a A/C induction motor which should easily last for well over 1 Million Miles. The quality of construction of the suspension and drive components is among the best of any auto manufacturer (Based on Edmonds Review of Suspension and Under Carriage). Also, when its time to replace the battery in a few years the next generation will probably get 350 to 400 rated miles and cost between $10-$18K. How can you not drive the Tesla 200 miles per day!!
Ok, thanks very much! Another question that I have is with regards to scheduled charging at home and SOC. I have a flat energy supply rate (no $$ savings by charging after midnight). Lets say I get home at 5-6pm every day with 40% SOC. Is it better for battery life to leave the car sit at 40% and use scheduled charging to start at midnight so that it reaches 90% right around 4-5am when I leave, or is it better to immediately start charging as soon as I get home, which would complete around 9-10pm and leave it sit at 90% (standard charge) until about 4-5am when I leave? If the latter, I am not worried about extra 'vampire drain' from the grid during the night (which probably shouldn't happen anyway, I don't think it would unless your car sits around for many days and it needs to top off).
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oh and the other question I have related to that - I have both NEMA 14-50 and HPWC, which is better to use for battery life? Will charging at 80A vs charging at 40A help or hurt the battery life? If charging at lower amps is better for battery life, would it be smart to "dial down the amps" to something like 25-30A (guessing) so that when I plug in at night around 5-6pm it starts charging immediately and completes around 4-5am when I leave the next day?
Probably the best is to charge for an hour or two right after you get home to keep the battery temperature down after driving, then stop the charge and charge again so that it finishes just before you leave.
No difference. Any charge that is no more and 1C has the same effect on battery life. The car's software already has quite a bit of programming to protect the battery.
The bottom line is, "Don't over-think this". The difference in life between any of the standard charging methods is only going to be detectible if you keep very detailed records and acquire additional instrumentation. Would there be a difference? Yes. Would it be detectible with the on-board instrumentation (e.g. +- 3%*)? Doubtful.
* The +- 3% comes from the inaccuracies that are built into every car: Tire RPM change over the life, sampling rate, averaging of the measured values, variances in the measured values, etc. Of course, an ICE has even more because the fuel usage can't be measured that precisely. I use 5% as the "same as zero" number for ICE cars.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I don't see the advantage in charging for a short period to lower battery temps since putting current into a pack actually raises temps. The pack climate controls should be working to lower temps into a safe range anyway.
I believe there is more temperature control during charging then just sitting plugged in without charging. It's well known that on the Roadster that the battery rises to a higher temperature sitting plugged in after a run then it does when it's charging after a run. The Model S may be different in that respect, but I don't believe anyone has confirmed it one way or the other.
It wouldn't matter whether you charged you car at 5-6 PM or 12 Midnight since the SOC is 40% at either time. The charge rate does affect battery life. Typically charging should not be done above 1C (One time the Capacity of the Battery). Some engineers feel that 0.7C is better for battery life. This translates to NEMA 14-50 (240V X 50 A = 12 KW's (X .080) = 9.6 Kw / Hour of charge or the HPWC = 240 V X 100 A X 0.80 = 19.2 Kw / Hour of charge. Both are below 0.7C (59.5 Kw/Hour of charging). The only issue that might arise is, if someone uses Tesla's Super Charging Stations on a regular basis where the current is at or above 100 Kw/ Hour. To get the maximum life out of lithium ion cells you should charge to about 3.7 Volts (approximately 50% capacity of the 4.2 V @ 100% capacity) and discharge from that point and then charge to 50%. However this is impractical for the majority of Tesla owners. As well, the state of technology of the 18650 component cells when charged according to Tesla's recommendation should endure quite well until the next generation arrives (3-5 years).
It wouldn't matter whether you charge at either 5-6 PM or midnight since the state of charge is the same (40%) as you indicated. It is best not to exceed 1xC (one x capacity) when charging. This translates to NEMA 14-50 (240V x 50 A x 0.80) to 9.6 KW / hour. The HPWC is 240V x 100A x 0.80=19.2 Kw / Hour. Many engineers feel that it's best to charge at 0.7 C (59.5 Kw / Hour) or less. Both the NEMA 14-50 and the HPWC are below this level. The only potential issue that might arise in the future; is if some were to use Tesla's Super Charging Stations on a regular basis (daily) where the charge exceeds the capacity (100 Kw/ hour).
For Li-ion batteries, 40% is generally considered an ideal storage SOC, while a somewhat higher rate of battery degradation is expected at 90% SOC. So it does make sense to let the car sit at 40% for as long as possible until it needs be charged for the morning commute. That said, this is general advice and could vary with battery chemistry.
It also makes sense that Tesla would advise owners to simply plug the car in and let it charge, as this does simplify the ownership experience. To a great many people, the benefits of trying to time each charge might not be worth the hassle.
It also makes sense that Tesla would advise owners to simply plug the car in and let it charge, as this does simplify the ownership experience. To a great many people, the benefits of trying to time each charge might not be worth the hassle.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
The reason that a lower SOC is better for the battery is because lower voltage is a more stable environment for the electrolyte. Delaying charging so the least amount of time is spent sitting at a high SOC does make sense.
I would like to pose this question on other way. I will also be doing a 200 mile round trip 3 to 4 days per week with my Model S. Unfortunately I won't have the opportunity to recharge mid day.
Will I need to use max range mode?
what happens when the battery life gets worse after a few years?
will this be too far to travel in Wisconsin and Illinois winter?
Will I do damage to the battery charging and discharging of this much?
does it matter if I use the high-power wall charger vs the standard 14-50 outlet?
Is there anything else I should be thinking of before going through with my purchase of model s?
Will I need to use max range mode?
what happens when the battery life gets worse after a few years?
will this be too far to travel in Wisconsin and Illinois winter?
Will I do damage to the battery charging and discharging of this much?
does it matter if I use the high-power wall charger vs the standard 14-50 outlet?
Is there anything else I should be thinking of before going through with my purchase of model s?
What speed will you be driving? You'll be able to make the trip but likely need a max charge in the winter depending on the speed you drive. It doesn't matter if you use the HPWC vs. 14-50 outlet as long as you are fully recharged for the next day. The battery degrades a little with each cycle so since you'll basically be doing a full cycle 3-4 times a week it will degrade faster than someone who drives 30 miles a day but tough to say how much or how fast.
Is there any way you could possibly install even a 14-50 outlet at your destination (even if you had to pay for it yourself)? That would greatly simplify your situation.
This is a great post by ChadS to review as well
Putting some numbers on the factors that affect range
Great link, thanks!
Traffic between Milwaukee and Chicago goes fast. 70-75 in WI, then 80+ is easily doable once you're to IL. I typically do 73-74 in WI and 75-80 in IL.. Of the 88 miles each way I typically spend maybe 30-50% of the time at those cruising speeds. So, 30-40 miles at 75-80 would be typical.. the rest of the commute would be in line with other cars almost drafting.. 65-70 in WI, or 70-75 in IL.
I'm a consultant.. The past year I've been at one client but that isn't going to be the case forever. I'm not sure they'd allow an outlet to be installed there but I'm going to ask tomorrow. Once this assignment is over all bets are off so I need to be able to go the round trip.
If I keep up the Milwuakee to Chicago commute it is likely I'll have 500,000 on it by the time the 8-year battery warranty is up.. I presume by that point I'd have a decent shot of the battery capacity being degraded enough to warrant a replacement. But I'll also plan for that out of pocket in my budgeting. It really isn't that big of an expense over 8 years.
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