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2012 Model S P85 Battery Replacement Receipt - sharing is caring

Dec 27, 2015
130
484
Cheyenne, WY
Your app screenshots show one set of wheels but the picture of your car shows a different set of wheels. I guess they were taken at different times?
Glad you figured out the obvious. I have multiple sets of wheels and tires. I rarely run the 21" Summer tires anymore. I have a winter set on the 19" "Ten Spoke" wheels with Nokian Hakkapelitta tires, and a 19" "Silver Twin Turbine" wheels with Michelin X tired for the rest of the year. My in car graphic matches the set I have mounted. I change my tires and wheels seasonally, not my profile picture in this group. The 21" Silver Cyclone" are only installed for car shows. All the wheel sets we have are OEM and were original options for this car.
 

Zuikkis

Member
Aug 19, 2020
263
307
Finland
$22k every 8 years is not really too bad?

My previous car was a 3.5L V6 Nissan Elgrand. During four years, I drove 130000km and paid about 22000€ for the gasoline alone... More than I paid for the car initially.

I know it's different math for you US folks.. :)
 
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No2DinosaurFuel

Active Member
Apr 16, 2015
1,406
753
San Diego, California
$22k every 8 years is not really too bad?

My previous car was a 3.5L V6 Nissan Elgrand. During four years, I drove 130000km and paid about 22000€ for the gasoline alone... More than I paid for the car initially.

I know it's different math for you US folks.. :)
Yeah fuel is much more expensive over there hence why EV adoption is higher over there compared to here.

For the math here, you are looking at around 80K miles or 3200 gallons of gasoline assuming 25mpg for the 3.5L v6 of yours and at an average $3 per gallon, you are looking at fuel cost of around $10K. But to keep everything on the books, you would have used 23MWh of electricity to drive those 80K miles using a model s assuming 290Wh/mi. Again that is generous and usually only the AWD model s can hit those numbers. Assuming charging inefficiency and vampire drain, you are looking about 25% over that 23MWh or 29MWh. Average electricity cost even with solar or charging at night is $0.08 or $2.3K. So cost is really 20K + $2.3K if you are using your calculation.

So you can see even optimistically calculating, you are looking at a hefty bill every 8 years. Not apples to apples comparison, but my 2008 civic si total maintenance cost for the 8 year was around $2.5K and around 80K miles. Fuel cost for those 80K is similar because I have to use premium gasoline, but the car gets closer to 29mpg. So going on those numbers, $22.3K vs $12.5K? And that 22.3K is not factoring any other maintained cost for your tesla which can be quite expensive given the service center cost. So yeah more than $10K saving if I drove my civic vs my tesla. IMO the 20K battery cost every 8 years is bad compared to ICE cars at least here in the US.
 
Dec 27, 2015
130
484
Cheyenne, WY
$22k every 8 years is not really too bad?

My previous car was a 3.5L V6 Nissan Elgrand. During four years, I drove 130000km and paid about 22000€ for the gasoline alone... More than I paid for the car initially.

I know it's different math for you US folks.. :)
Driving a Tesla, especially an early one, is not about cheap transportation. Our 2012 Signature Edition P85 was $107,000 when it was new. When we purchased it with 19,600 miles on it in Janruary 2016 Certfied Pre-Owned from Trsla it was $60,000. Now, with 122,000 miles on it, it still does 0 to 60 mph in the 4.2 seconds it did when it was brand new. All the features which made it a luxury performance car when it was new still are there or have gotten better. This was the first mass produced electric vehicle which could be driven coast to coast across the United States. Up to this point, excluding tires, our total fuel, maintenance and repair expenses in over 100,000 miles of use was about $2,000. Owning it is like owning the electric equivalent of a 1953 Corvette or a 1955 Thinderbird. I've had the latter. It was a maintenance and repair sinkhole. So if the replacement of the worst battery Tesla ever made (pre-production) cost more than your entire smog producing I.C.E. (Internal Combustion Engine) machine, I don't mind paying that premium to continue enjoying this classic and iconic ride which isn't choking the life out of the planet or supporting the fossil fuel war making industrial complex in the manner every petroleum burning vehicle does. So yes, your math and mine is different. My balance sheet for calculating value is not limited to money. It includes nonmonetary considerations such as environmental impacts, historic importance of this specific vehicle, joy to drive, and living our values. That last part is why we power our home and cars from wind and sun, and store our excess electricity in the largest Powerwall system in Wyoming. 😎

 
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TwistedGray

Ludicrous > Ludacris
Mar 12, 2021
362
314
Monterey Bay, CA
$22k every 8 years is not really too bad?

My previous car was a 3.5L V6 Nissan Elgrand. During four years, I drove 130000km and paid about 22000€ for the gasoline alone... More than I paid for the car initially.

I know it's different math for you US folks.. :)

There are a lot of assumptions in that $22k price tag though. That's just for the battery - one major component. There are other high ticket items that will fail over time such as the drive unit ($10k), the sunroof ($2500+), MCU display ($2k?), and at the end of the day you are sitting on 9yr old technology.

$22k is actually quite bad considering for $40-50k you can get a significantly newer Tesla model s, under warranty, with a fraction of the miles, and a heap of new features, functions, etc. So yeah, $22k is pretty horrid when you compare to the actual market.

Up to this point, excluding tires, our total fuel, maintenance and repair expenses in over 100,000 miles of use was about $2,000.

You should change that $2,000 to $24,000.

You are still on the original sunroof? That's impressive! (or maybe they've updated yours through warranty?)
 

FLRifleman

Member
Apr 2, 2021
25
9
Florida
Wow $20K... Humm definitely not manageable for some. If it is $20K every 8 years or so and 4 of those years are horrible range reduced supercharging reduced performance, I think I better start saving. A gas car after 8 years of maintenance is not $20K total. Hopefully this is only a tesla thing so I can eventually switch out to something else once the other guys catch up in supercharging capability. Man knowing what I know now, I would've drove my gas car for many more years and switching to another brand EVs.
It's not just a Telsa thing, it's the state of battery development. A new battery for the Volt is running 12k, the first units are just reaching 10 years old, and we are seeing failures earlier then that timeframe (I own a Gen2). Financially, the vast majority are better off buying a regular gas car. I love the electric drive, however it's not honest to ignore this fact.

If / When the million mile battery is out, AND it's also durable in terms of time, lets say 15 years, then this would be a game changer.
 

FLRifleman

Member
Apr 2, 2021
25
9
Florida
$22k every 8 years is not really too bad?

My previous car was a 3.5L V6 Nissan Elgrand. During four years, I drove 130000km and paid about 22000€ for the gasoline alone... More than I paid for the car initially.

I know it's different math for you US folks.. :)

Yes, it is. The fuel cost difference, and going to a small SUV at that, would be an additional $1,100 a year for me, and I drive 20k miles annually. I've done a lot of analytics lately, as I contemplate keeping mine outside of the warranty. A battery replacement would wipe away the fuel savings, even accounting for the additional maintenance.
 
Dec 27, 2015
130
484
Cheyenne, WY
There are a lot of assumptions in that $22k price tag though. That's just for the battery - one major component. There are other high ticket items that will fail over time such as the drive unit ($10k), the sunroof ($2500+), MCU display ($2k?), and at the end of the day you are sitting on 9yr old technology.

$22k is actually quite bad considering for $40-50k you can get a significantly newer Tesla model s, under warranty, with a fraction of the miles, and a heap of new features, functions, etc. So yeah, $22k is pretty horrid when you compare to the actual market.



You should change that $2,000 to $24,000.

You are still on the original sunroof? That's impressive! (or maybe they've updated yours through warranty?)
Yes original sunroof. No I don't need to update what I wrote. You just need to take notice of the words I used to qualify my statement "upto this point...". 😉
 
Dec 27, 2015
130
484
Cheyenne, WY
Our first V3 Supercharge with the NEW 90 kWh battery in our 2012 Signature Edition P85 Tesla Model S


We went to the Thornton Supercharger which is V3 and and should deliver upto 250 kW. Driving from Cheyenne, Wyoming in 70°+ weather, and destination programmed in to pre-condition we were hoping for faster charging than what we get in Cheyenne, which is V2 (150 kW maximum).


We arrived with 20 percent SOC (State Of Charge) and were underwhelmed by the result, 115 kW. We charged for 12 minutes and were at 52 percent SOC, which actually is much better than our original battery. We'll see if Tesla can do anything to improve this, but even if they can't, it maintained greater than 100 kW during the entire charging session. Our old battery would have had a maximum rate of 88kW and during most of the charging session would be 30 - 45 kW.


The only source of our disappointment was the expectation created by what the representatives from Tesla stated about the upgrade battery performance. They need to either be more realistic or figure why our battery is not operating in the manner they said it would (V3). Had they told us that it would perform like this (V2), we still would have picked the upgrade instead of a remanufactured replacement, but would not have any sense of disappointment about it. I hope sharing this information helps others who are considering options if their Tesla High Voltage battery is out of warranty and needs replacement.


 
Dec 27, 2015
130
484
Cheyenne, WY
I have this battery - I've been able to get it up to 150kw. Also a 2012 Model S. That is pretty amazing for a 2012 Tesla that was sold before superchargers were introduced and that had an initial cap of 90kw charging that subsequently fell to 40-50max
When your was upgraded did they change any of the cables (wiring)? Also, what is the highest State Of Charge (SOC%) where you can Supercharge at 150 kW? Thank you.
 

gaswalla

Model S,3,X.. CT with Austin delivery
Sep 23, 2012
3,452
3,838
San Diego
no cables changed out.. fortunate to have done this under warranty. Ideal weather and with SOC in <20 at a V3 that is relatively empty. Kept it up there for just a few minutes really, and seemed to settle at 110-125kw through SOC 50ish. Honestly, knowing what supercharging does to these batteries, I am more than happy waiting 5 more minutes and keeping the charge rate in the 80-100 kw range
 
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UrsS

Supporting Member
Supporting Member
Mar 9, 2017
118
529
Placerville, CA
$22,000 for a new battery - way more expensive than driving an ICE ?
There is one cost nobody her has mentioned yet: the damage caused by the CO2 from the ICE (health, climate catastrophe, air pollution damage . . .). The only study on this I saw so far (and I can't find the link any more) put that cost at $ 4.30 per gallon of gas. So, please ad that $$$ amount to the cost of driving any ICE car. Now let's re-calculate how much 'cheaper' that Honda Civic is to drive over 100,000 miles (30mpg) ad $ 14,333. 🤷‍♂️
But of course we don't have to pay that directly, we pay through our taxes, doctor fees, etc.
 
Dec 27, 2015
130
484
Cheyenne, WY
UPDATE: May 3, 2021 - I got a call from one of the Service Technicians at the Superior Tesla Service Center. Aside from an apology for the prior miscommunications, he explained much, and per my request followed up with an email so I would have a record of our discussion. Here are excerpts from the email I received, which accurately reflects what we discussed as it pertains to the HV battery:

"Just wanted to follow up and try and provide a summary of what we discussed over the phone regarding the new HV battery we recently installed in your vehicle. I do apologize again for the miscommunication about the charging rates. Unfortunately, even though the battery itself is capable of charging at a higher rate, the other charging components installed in the vehicle are not capable of charging higher than what you are currently seeing under ideal conditions. This is something we definitely should have communicated better with you and I am sorry for that.

I asked one of the high voltage battery engineers about the change in voltage from 400 to 350 and found out the internal architecture of this battery is different than what your vehicle originally had installed. This new architecture actually allows for improved performance than your original battery was capable of at a slightly reduced voltage. This is due to some different battery cell chemistry as well as improvements to other hardware within the battery. These changes create a more consistent voltage during acceleration (less voltage drop) and improved and more consistent current flow to the drive unit increasing the performance of the vehicle.

The last thing I would like to mention is that the battery you have is completely brand new, no remanufactured or used parts are present, even the housing is a completely new piece. I hope this helps explain a little more about your battery. If you do have any further questions I can answer, please feel free to reach out."

I appreciate the communication and clarifications. We would have done the same repair with this information, but our expectations would have been different. I am satisfied with this response from Tesla.
 
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All that is well and good, but bottom line is they need to get these replacement costs down, and fast.

At $22k it's sort of in "shakedown" territory, because you really don't have any option at that point-- a car with a nonfunctional battery has no resale and putting the money in (and gaining warranty) makes it foolish to sell after the replacement. So you don't REALLY have a choice... And the price is high enough that most people are going to resent having been put in that no-win scenario.

They're gonna complain, there will be news stories, and it'll kill what resale value remains (and potentially new sales) when the average consumer begins to wonder if EVs are ticking financial time bombs. If no one ever wants to own out of warranty, that's gonna kill the residuals on leasing too -- I mean, this is something all manufacturers will have to address, but because Tesla selling ONLY EVs and bragging about their battery tech constantly, it puts them at dire risk of getting a really bad reputation if/when more stories about $22,000 repair bills on 8 year old cars-- their flagship, uber-hyped and barely out of warranty cars-- mind you... It undermines everything their marketing has been built on.

There's lots of ways to do the "funny math" to pretend this cost is trivial/expected but the bottom line is it absolutely kills any discussion about gas/maintenance/running expense savings. KILLS it utterly.

Me? I'd do the replacement too. I love my car. But I'm not gonna pretend this isn't what it is: a problem.
 
Dec 27, 2015
130
484
Cheyenne, WY
All that is well and good, but bottom line is they need to get these replacement costs down, and fast.

At $22k it's sort of in "shakedown" territory, because you really don't have any option at that point-- a car with a nonfunctional battery has no resale and putting the money in (and gaining warranty) makes it foolish to sell after the replacement. So you don't REALLY have a choice... And the price is high enough that most people are going to resent having been put in that no-win scenario.

They're gonna complain, there will be news stories, and it'll kill what resale value remains (and potentially new sales) when the average consumer begins to wonder if EVs are ticking financial time bombs. If no one ever wants to own out of warranty, that's gonna kill the residuals on leasing too -- I mean, this is something all manufacturers will have to address, but because Tesla selling ONLY EVs and bragging about their battery tech constantly, it puts them at dire risk of getting a really bad reputation if/when more stories about $22,000 repair bills on 8 year old cars-- their flagship, uber-hyped and barely out of warranty cars-- mind you... It undermines everything their marketing has been built on.

There's lots of ways to do the "funny math" to pretend this cost is trivial/expected but the bottom line is it absolutely kills any discussion about gas/maintenance/running expense savings. KILLS it utterly.

Me? I'd do the replacement too. I love my car. But I'm not gonna pretend this isn't what it is: a problem.
What it kills is the pretentious and overly inflated monetary value fantasies some owners have about their cars. The depreciated value of a car that sold for $107,000 new after 8-1/2 years and has 122,000 miles is not, in most cases going to be much, especially when it started with a $7,500 federal tax credit and possibly a state tax credit.

The only thing more convoluted and contrived than "Tesla math" (the net value Tesla ascribed to the purchase when new) is the fallacy some owners ascribe to the value of their car when selling it used. Some act as if it was like real estate and should appreciate. This is partly fueled from greed, ignorance, arrogance, and that prior to Tesla doing 2 things in 2015 which really decreased the sale price of a used Tesla.

Until the spring of 2015 there was an upto 6 month wait to receive a newly ordered Model S and there was no Tesla CPO program. People were sometimes pay more for a used Tesla than a new one because they could see, test drive, and purchase the vehicle they test drove on the same day. They paid a premium for that convenience. As soon as the Tesla CPO program started, where Tesla was selling used Tesla at the price they acquired and repaired the car that inflated used car market began to crumble. When they reduced delivery times from 6 months to 6 weeks, it further eroded. The introduction of dual motors and AP1 in the fall of 2015 further reduced the demand for earlier, used models.

Prior to our battery failing, the used sale value of our car was in the $25k - 30k range (not that we were interested in selling it). When the battery failed Tesla offered to buy our car as a trade in for $17k. Given the age, miles, and condition of the vehicle, it was a fair offer. There was a time when part of the unique value of a Tesla was it being the only long range EV one could buy, and the only EV with a charging network where one could drive across the United States. Both of those paradigms have changed. Part of "the plan" stated early on by Elon Musk was to provoke other automakers to build EVs and to expand EV charging. That mission is being accomplished. One of the realities of that happening, without arguing about the differences between Tesla and other brands is there are other options people have, so the price one gets for a used Tesla is less than what it was when Tesla had the exclusive market for long range EVs.

Tesla further reduced the resale value of Models S/X with the introduction of the newer AP, longer range versions of S/X, at lower prices paid for the bundled packages rather than when features were purchased a la carte. The introduction of the Model 3 and Model Y also reduce the resale value of prior models.

The bottom line financially (and environmentally) is if anyone wants to extract the greatest value from their Tesla, drive it until it can no longer be repaired. Ours is paid in full. Our choice was Buy another $39k Tesla (trade in + price of battery replacement $22k) which would be a vehicle we don't like as much as the one we have, or buy a used $25k-30k Model S (which would potentially have other problems we already fixed on the one we have), or repair ours for $22k and keep the car we enjoy with the repair history we know, while continuing to drive electric, mostly fueled from the solar PV and wind turbines at our home. For us, this was not a difficult choice. We bought this specific car (Signature Red P85) quite deliberately CPO in January 2016 for about $60k, when it had 19,600 miles on it. This was and is "our birthdays, anniversaries, and whatever gifts to each other for the rest of our lives." We've been driving electric since 2007, mostly EV conversions, so we really appreciate what Tesla accomplished.

When one has a context other than a financial balance sheet and a fantasy about a rapidly depreciating item such as a car, one is less likely to be disappointed about repair costs of early production years or resale values.
 

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Dec 27, 2015
130
484
Cheyenne, WY
Per Tesla:



@Jason Bloomberg, have you experienced this performance improvement in your driving?
I haven't taken it to a track to test acceleration times but the ability to pass seems the same as before. Our 0-60mph was originally represented as 4.2 seconds (Motor Trend got 3.9 with a professional driver on a track and car fully charged). We have experienced longer range now 270 miles versus the 220-230 miles we had before, and markedly faster charging. The performance seems intact. It still passes almost everything other than another (newer- faster) Tesla. 😎
 
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