2012 P85 HV battery replacement options -- need perspective.

[airsailor]

Hello Brain Trust--

2012 P85 with 118,000 miles, 12/2012 build, in Upstate NY, with MCU2, approximately 15% supercharging and 85% charged at 20 - 40A at home. I purchased car in March from third owner. Tesla replaced HV battery under warranty with remanufactured July 2020 prior to my purchase, which I thought of as added value in this older car. Car had 100% SOC range of 240 in March with 109,000 mileage, and yesterday had full-charged range of about 235. Car sat unused, unplugged, outdoors in summer heat for six weeks until a week ago and lost most of its charge during that period but had no issues charging to 85% after that. Today the "Maximum battery charge level reduced" warning appeared while the car was charged to 190 miles range. I tried to charge it beyond that and got "charge complete" message, then left it in the driveway -- I don't know what the charge level has been capped at but want to preserve what range I have so I can get it to the SC. Made service appointment on app then got a call from Tesla couple of hours later saying they had remotely analyzed the battery and it needs to be replaced. Tech said it appears that "one brick is shorted." I pressed for more clarity but didn't get it; all he said is that at least one module is defective.

Tesla is giving me option of buying either a remanufactured battery or a new battery; both are 90kWh, and both have same 4 year / 50K mile warranty. Tech said the reman battery would be expected to begin life in my car with about 5% degradation compared to the new battery. Remanufactured (1102982-01-A) is $11,500. New (1101078-00-A) is $21,000. Tech was unable to tell me about actual wait time for either battery to arrive at the White Plains SC but said "about a week."

I'm aware of Electrified Garage, 057 Technology, and ReCell, and have reached out to all for information.

I may be nuts but I am actually leaning toward investing the $21,000 in this older car for the brand new battery -- I would then have $50K in the car. My logic is that I would then have a P90 with something like 290+ miles range at 100% SOC, and, more importantly, I would expect the free supercharging to be much faster for at least the first several years. I would also expect to get 8 - 10 years from the new battery, even if the warranty is only for 4 years, so amortized cost over ten years is not insane. I am also wary of buying a remanufactured battery from Tesla or third parties given that the reman in the car, which was installed 25 months ago, has apparently failed fatally (and is not warrantied as the original 8 year warranty is expired). I love the car and don't have any desire for self-driving or even auto-pilot features, and the car seems to be solid and in very good shape apart from the HV battery. Although I have many other things I'd rather use the money for, I can swing this if it makes sense.

So looking for a reality check here. Are my assumptions above correct? Is my logic flawed and is there a better way to think about this? Thanks in advance--

 

[ElectricIAC]

If both are 4/50 warranty I’d go with the cheaper option.

Being where you are, I’d def chat with Rich first though.

 

[KJD]

Let’s say you go with the new battery and have invested 50K in the car. What if you drive the car for a month and then the drive unit goes bad. Then you spend 8 to 10K replacing the drive unit and now you have 60K invested in a 10 year old car.

Why not spend 47K on a new Model 3 and have a new car and a 4 year warranty on everything? More range and a car that was built in 2022 instead of 2012.

Not the answer you want to hear I am sure, but think about it before you decide.

 

[airsailor]

Why not spend 47K on a new Model 3 and have a new car and a 4 year warranty on everything? More range and a car that was built in 2022 instead of 2012.

This is definitely a consideration. What do I do with the MS in that scenario? Will Tesla take it in trade? However, your suggestion requires that I come up with 47K, plus NYS sales tax of 8.75% , not 11.5 K or 21K, or possibly less if I work with a third party shop, and that is not a trivial difference. I've never owned a new car or even a car under any sort of warranty, so I've been accustomed to some level of risk and the idea that I will pay for occasional repairs versus making monthly car payments, but an 11.5K or 21K repair bill will definitely be a new record....

 

[airsailor]

I should also note that I see a lot of value in the free supercharging with the older cars and would like to keep that, especially if the charging rate would not be throttled heavily with a new battery.

 

[ElectricIAC]

This is definitely a consideration. What do I do with the MS in that scenario? Will Tesla take it in trade? However, your suggestion requires that I come up with 47K, plus NYS sales tax of 8.75% , not 11.5 K or 21K, or possibly less if I work with a third party shop, and that is not a trivial difference. I've never owned a new car or even a car under any sort of warranty, so I've been accustomed to some level of risk and the idea that I will pay for occasional repairs versus making monthly car payments, but an 11.5K or 21K repair bill will definitely be a new record....

Keep in mind that’s for a standard range, not a long range.

And you’d no longer have free supercharging which is starting to get expensive for non FUSC cars.

 

[KJD]

This is definitely a consideration. What do I do with the MS in that scenario? Will Tesla take it in trade? However, your suggestion requires that I come up with 47K, plus NYS sales tax of 8.75% , not 11.5 K or 21K, or possibly less if I work with a third party shop, and that is not a trivial difference. I've never owned a new car or even a car under any sort of warranty, so I've been accustomed to some level of risk and the idea that I will pay for occasional repairs versus making monthly car payments, but an 11.5K or 21K repair bill will definitely be a new record....

There are a number of ways to turn your old car into cash. Talk to @wk057 about what the car is worth. I have also heard of Tesla taking cars like that as trade-in.

I drove a 2012 Model S for years it was a great car but when the power train warranty expired I sold it. No regrets. Right now I have his and hers Model Y’s in the garage. It works for me but not everyone has same priority.

 

[airsailor]

I've asked Tesla if they will take it in trade toward a new car and am waiting to hear back. But I'm leaning toward keeping it and holding off on purchasing a new car -- my motorcycle is 22 years old (BMW R1100S), my glider is 37 (DG-400), my sailboat 25 (Beneteau Oceanis 40CC), and my airplane is 47 (Grumman Cheetah), so apparently I like older stuff, or at least I like the economics of having a variety of older toys rather than one new toy.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to get real answers from Tesla via the chat function in the app:

1. Will they take car in trade in present condition and what is it worth?
2. Is the $21,000 battery 1101078-A absolutely a NEW battery, meaning all 7104 18650 cells are brand new and have only been charged discharged during manufacture and testing?
3. These are 90 kWh batteries -- is all 90 kWh capacity available or is it "capped" so it matches the capacity of the original 85 kWh pack?
4. If the 1101078-A battery is truly a new battery can I expect my car's EPA rated mileage to be what it was when the car was brand new: 265 miles? Or can I expect it to exceed this since the new battery has another 5 kWh capacity and I get roughly 3 miles per kWh, so rated range should be around 280 before the battery starts to degrade?
5. With the new battery, will supercharging rate be what it was when the car was new and not throttled to preserve the battery as is the case with the older batteries?
6. Will my P85's performance be identical with the new battery?

If I can get affimative answers to these questions in writing I'm leaning toward making the investment in the new battery -- but the jury is a long way out. Also not optimistic about getting real answers any time soon.

 

[EstebanP212]

I've asked Tesla if they will take it in trade toward a new car and am waiting to hear back. But I'm leaning toward keeping it and holding off on purchasing a new car -- my motorcycle is 22 years old (BMW R1100S), my glider is 37 (DG-400), my sailboat 25 (Beneteau Oceanis 40CC), and my airplane is 47 (Grumman Cheetah), so apparently I like older stuff, or at least I like the economics of having a variety of older toys rather than one new toy.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to get real answers from Tesla via the chat function in the app:

1. Will they take car in trade in present condition and what is it worth?
2. Is the $21,000 battery 1101078-A absolutely a NEW battery, meaning all 7104 18650 cells are brand new and have only been charged discharged during manufacture and testing?
3. These are 90 kWh batteries -- is all 90 kWh capacity available or is it "capped" so it matches the capacity of the original 85 kWh pack?
4. If the 1101078-A battery is truly a new battery can I expect my car's EPA rated mileage to be what it was when the car was brand new: 265 miles? Or can I expect it to exceed this since the new battery has another 5 kWh capacity and I get roughly 3 miles per kWh, so rated range should be around 280 before the battery starts to degrade?
5. With the new battery, will supercharging rate be what it was when the car was new and not throttled to preserve the battery as is the case with the older batteries?
6. Will my P85's performance be identical with the new battery?

If I can get affimative answers to these questions in writing I'm leaning toward making the investment in the new battery -- but the jury is a long way out. Also not optimistic about getting real answers any time soon.

For getting the 90kw pack that is supposed to be new and your going to be getting full range only reason you would have a software limit is say for warranty where tesla
Is only required to return your car to original operating condition

In this case you paying for a 90kw pack for repair on your own dime there should be reason for it to be software capped

On supercharging yoy definitely will charge faster but I am curious
If tesla
Resets the cars internal DC charging history back to 0 to allow potential “true full speed”

 

[TSLA Pilot]

Another angle: you spend the BIG money for a brand new battery, and someone taps your rear end at a traffic light.

Ooops.

Even with minimal damage your car is totaled because it would cost far more to fix than it's worth, and your insurance company cuts you a check for $20k, maybe less. You are out a LOT of money and you'll never see it again.

Thus, IF you decide to keep it, I would most certainly go for the REMAN battery at about half price--far less financial risk.

OTOH, if Tesla will give you a good trade-in value (highly unlikely), then consider a trade for a new/used Tesla Model 3 or Y . . . .

Good luck and do please let us know what answers you get (if any) and what path you choose.

p.s. Hope Gruber Motors or Electrified Garage can help you for far, far less financial risk.

 

[brainhouston]

Might be worth checking wrecking yards for used one or buy complete wrecked car from auction yourself then sell the rest for parts (if u have a space for it)
Last resort, sell yours for parts or take it to auction n find used one with FUSC
I'm a tinkerer so my advice is a bit biased

 

[EstebanP212]

Another angle: you spend the BIG money for a brand new battery, and someone taps your rear end at a traffic light.

Ooops.

Even with minimal damage your car is totaled because it would cost far more to fix than it's worth, and your insurance company cuts you a check for $20k, maybe less. You are out a LOT of money and you'll never see it again.

Thus, IF you decide to keep it, I would most certainly go for the REMAN battery at about half price--far less financial risk.

OTOH, if Tesla will give you a good trade-in value (highly unlikely), then consider a trade for a new/used Tesla Model 3 or Y . . . .

Good luck and do please let us know what answers you get (if any) and what path you choose.

p.s. Hope Gruber Motors or Electrified Garage can help you for far, far less financial risk.

I think gruber isn’t really a option seems few people posting about trying to have work done with them is usually ending in them being told it can be a 6-8 month wait they are focused more on the roadsters
The best options are really
electrified garage
Wk0057
Maybe recell ev
Or tesla refurbished packs

 

[gaswalla]

I have the new battery in my 2012 - fortunately got it under warranty. Range was 279 on day of install (note, was 265 new back in 2012), and max supercharging (free of course) has been 130kw (ideal conditions). Car also has more power - no stats, but after 10 years / 300k+ of driving the car, I feel comfortable saying I felt the significant difference. I got the new battery 100k miles ago, and degradation has brought it to 269 miles - which IMO is awesome. I highly recommend this option if the 10k difference in cost is manageable

 

[airsailor]

Thanks all for chiming in. I think I can accept the risk of having a *very* expensive 2012 Model S -- I don't view the car as a savings account and am trying to get a handle on which makes more sense, a smaller investment to return the car to it's former state with a fairly tired battery, or a larger investment to make the car like new, or better than new, in terms of range and supercharging speeds. I also have a 2013 MS so if the '12 was accidentally totaled I would probably switch the new battery into the '13....

@gaswalla, thanks for sharing your experience with the new battery in your 2012 -- this is precisely the kind of information I'm looking for and your experience is encouraging.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Certainly better than the Just buy a new car.

 

[beatle]

$9,500 is a lot of money. It's nearly twice the cost of the reman battery. Things you get for that premium:

- Faster SC speed (maybe?)
- No degradation (5% "bonus" capacity)
- Perhaps longer life, but only guaranteed for the same time/mileage as the reman battery.
- Perhaps slightly higher resale, but probably not by much.

Since you otherwise like the car as-is, I wouldn't suggest buying a newer S or changing to a Model 3, though I'd disagree on the value of free supercharging. Not sure if your current mileage will track consistently, but right now you're at around 21k/year. If you continue to supercharge for 15% of your mileage and supercharging rates are $0.40/kwh, you're looking at around $400/year. Not chump change, but it pales to repair costs.

If you supercharge 15% of the time and you put on 21k miles a year I would go with the reman battery and enjoy the car as you have been. At the 4 year mark when the warranty expires, you may feel differently about keeping the car another 4 years, especially if other components have made the car a money pit. You've projected that you'd like to keep the car 8-10 years longer, but IMO there is too much risk associated with keeping the car that long. The DU could fail, and it could more easily be totaled as it ages.

 

[gaswalla]

It’s folly to tell another that “x is a lot of money” or “x is just a small amount”. Save your judgement for own situation

 

[ucmndd]

Another angle: you spend the BIG money for a brand new battery, and someone taps your rear end at a traffic light.

Ooops.

Even with minimal damage your car is totaled because it would cost far more to fix than it's worth, and your insurance company cuts you a check for $20k, maybe less. You are out a LOT of money and you'll never see it again.

This is an interesting perspective, and one that has some merit, although also one that I think you can control for.

The insurance company owes you replacement value for YOUR specific car. You'd probably have to argue a bit with the claims adjuster, but you've got the receipt in-hand showing what you paid, and it would be hard to say that doesn't come into consideration when calculating a value.

Personally I'd contact them proactively, let them know about the major repair/investment, and have it on record that you've done so. They may or may not want to adjust your premium to reflect the higher replacement value.

 

[wk057]

We've had a lot of customers fight with insurance companies over this. They don't care what battery is in the car. They don't care how new it is. If a similar original-spec vehicle, plus maybe some wiggle room for extra aftermarket addons, can be bought on the open market for $X, the most you're getting is $X.

If you dump $20k into a 2012 S........... honestly, that seems pretty silly considering the car in fully working condition is barely worth over $20k at this point, let alone with a bum battery. Sell it and get a few bucks for it (we buy them with the busted batteries all the time, and I'm sure someone would probably buy it and have us or someone else fix/replace the battery), take that cash plus the $20k-ish you're about to dump into the 2012 S and just buy a 2014/2015 S or similar, or even just go into a new 3/Y. Get a car without the growing pain issues of the 2012-2013 models. Might even find something with some powertrain warranty left.

 

[airsailor]

Lots of food for thought here - thanks. @wk057 , I appreciate your input. I used the contact form on your company website hoping to speak to someone to get a quote. When you say:

Sell it and get a few bucks for it (we buy them with the busted batteries all the time

What, roughly, is the range for "a few bucks?" I don't want to "throw good money after bad," but I have $29K in the car, and would be taking a big haircut to part with it in this condition, I'm sure. I'm seeing 2014 - 2015 S's for sale in the northeast with asking prices of $39,000 - $55,000, so in addition to the few bucks I'd get for my car I imagine I'd be looking at another $30K - $40K to replace it with a 2014/15. With my initial purchase of the 2012 last March this would add up to maybe $59K - $69K for a 2014/15. Those cars have batteries that are 8 and 7 years old, respectively. I'm contrasting this with the idea of throwing $21K at my car and having $50K in it with a brand new battery, and that doesn't seem completely ludicrous to me. I understand I'd never be able to sell the car and recoup my investment -- this only works if I get a decade or so out of the vehicle -- or a lot of enjoyment out of it for an indefinite period.

Back of napkin math:
A) Sell the car for a few bucks, take loss of $20K (or more?): cost to drive the car 6 months = $20,000+
B) Install used battery through Tesla or Third Party (have your guys call me, haha!) Cost is $11,500 (Tesla) or a considerable fraction of that (third party). Anticipate 4 years additional life for car with used battery. Cost to drive car 4.5 years = $9000/year or somewhat less for third party.
C) Install new battery at $21,000; anticipate 8+ years additional life; cost to drive 8.5 years = 5900/year.
D) Install used battery as above then sell car for $26K; cost to drive 6 months = $14,000 or thereabouts.
Except in D), this assumes the car will have next to no value by the end of the replacement battery's life. All of it assumes no additional major repairs which is not likely to be the case, so amortized cost could be higher.
None of this is great! In the case of B), at $9000/year, I could basically buy a new S and drive it for a decade for the same cost! ARGHHH.