2012 P85 HV battery replacement options -- need perspective.

[brainhouston]

a bit off topic but how would performance differ between original 400v 90kWh vs 350v 90kWh?
isn't loosing 50v somehow will negatively affect the driving?...

 

[gaswalla]

Mine labeled 85kwh.
Personal belief - no reason for Tesla to design a new battery yet again for this purpose. They just have yahoos making labels. Calling this an 85 when it has so much more than the ‘85’ in the original S didn’t make sense. Calling it a 90 when it doesn’t actually have 90 is consistent with Teslas approach in the past, but is totally unnecessary in this situation. Removing the capacity from the label is consistent with current Tesla practice.

 

[Droschke]

Mine labeled 85kwh.
Personal belief - no reason for Tesla to design a new battery yet again for this purpose. They just have yahoos making labels. Calling this an 85 when it has so much more than the ‘85’ in the original S didn’t make sense. Calling it a 90 when it doesn’t actually have 90 is consistent with Teslas approach in the past, but is totally unnecessary in this situation. Removing the capacity from the label is consistent with current Tesla practice.

Thanks. One more, is the last character on yours A or B?

 

[airsailor]

In addition, folks started reporting that Tesla was adjusting the suspension with new battery.

The suspension upper link assemblies p/n 1027421-00-E were installed on my car with the new battery -- when questioning I was told this was required with the new battery.

My invoice states "90 kW" -- I'm just going to insist that they told me they were selling me a 90 kW battery with 280 miles of range and that's not what I'm getting, and see what the response is, although I understand from your post the battery has closer to 87 kW capacity. It's fairly ridiculous that Tesla won't just deliver straight information.

 

[kirkusss]

We don't currently offer this, as these packs are currently pretty much unobtainable outside of official Tesla service.

Yeah, figured they are harder to get outside Tesla. I still have 6 months of warranty on mine, will keep an eye on your postings if such unicorn will resurface.

 

[gaswalla]

Thanks. One more, is the last character on yours A or B?

1597780 -01 -A

 

[lightningltd]

@wk057 , This is very interesting info, thank you -- The car was first charged to 100% just as I picked it up from the SC. Since it showed 269, not 280, I had the rep put a note in the system that I am concerned that the range is not what I was promised. I think I will now go back to them about it and see if indeed it has been software locked. The labeling/sizing of the batteries is confusing, if the original 85kW pack was actually about 78kW -- does this mean that there is theoretically 85 kW capacity but only 78kW is actually usable/available? And, if so, I have what they told me is a "90 kW pack" but only about 79 kW is usable? Jeesh. I see that my invoice from Tesla states that it's a 90kW pack, even though the label on the pack does not. And, when you say "the last one of these packs you have data on," do you mean a pack with the same part number as the one I have, 1014116-00-C ? I will note that the case for the pack is pristine and clearly brand new. Thanks for you help with this.

@Droschke, I can't recall exactly what it was pulling just before 100% SOC -- I think it held 80 kW all the way to the end but maybe it tapered down from there in the last minute or two. I wasn't planning to charge it to 100% again soon but perhaps I will and will report back. I also didn't notice if I had regen available at 100% -- that would be interesting to know as I guess it suggests that there is more capacity if it's available. I'll report back if Tesla responds but I'm not holding my breath.

The battery is new, and the ~270 miles at 100% with no regen loss is on par with what others are getting that are software locked to the S85 level. Yes, the charge rate is noticeably faster on this battery. On a rwd 85, if not software capped with this new battery, you should see ~297 miles of range at 100%. Also, if uncapped, definite slow charging and regen loss at 100% is expected. Since yours is a P, it will be a bit less than the 297. I would estimate uncapped on a P would be about 290-294.

Since you paid for a new 85 battery, software capped to the right level should be fine. In fact, there are some advantages to the software cap.

 

[gaswalla]

Would be great (and is easy) to get CANBUS data

 

[airsailor]

On a rwd 85, if not software capped with this new battery, you should see ~297 miles of range at 100%. Also, if uncapped, definite slow charging and regen loss at 100% is expected. Since yours is a P, it will be a bit less than the 297. I would estimate uncapped on a P would be about 290-294.

Since you paid for a new 85 battery, software capped to the right level should be fine. In fact, there are some advantages to the software cap.

Wow, this is fascinating. So the pack is physically the same as the original 85 kW battery but the improved cell chemistry results in range of +/- 297 vs. the original 265 in the early RWD cars?

But I actually didn't pay for a new 85 battery; I paid for a new 90 battery. My question prior to going ahead was "Will all of the new 90 kW battery's capacity be available to me or will it be capped, and will supercharging be throttled as it was with my old battery?" A Tesla rep called me and told me definitively that since I was paying for a brand new 90 kW battery it would not be capped, I would have about 280 miles of range, and super-charging would not be slowed-down.

After submitting my concern about not getting 280 miles this morning, I've been invited to schedule a call with a rep. Before I do that I want to really understand the situation with these batteries. I'm going to supercharge to 100% SOC tomorrow morning and take careful notes of charge rate as it approaches 100%, then check to see if regen is available and how much. I don't know a thing about getting CANBUS data but I'll look into it, unless one of you care to fill me in -- seems like it may be a good idea to collect that data before my call with the Tesla rep. Even though I am basically content with 270 range, and I understand that it's advantageous to have some "headroom" from a software cap, I may push Tesla here simply because I was told in no uncertain terms that the battery would not be capped, and they should do what they say they are going to do, especially when a customer ponies up $20K.

This is far more interesting than I thought!

 

[JoshK]

Hello Brain Trust--

2012 P85 with 118,000 miles, 12/2012 build, in Upstate NY, with MCU2, approximately 15% supercharging and 85% charged at 20 - 40A at home. I purchased car in March from third owner. Tesla replaced HV battery under warranty with remanufactured July 2020 prior to my purchase, which I thought of as added value in this older car. Car had 100% SOC range of 240 in March with 109,000 mileage, and yesterday had full-charged range of about 235. Car sat unused, unplugged, outdoors in summer heat for six weeks until a week ago and lost most of its charge during that period but had no issues charging to 85% after that. Today the "Maximum battery charge level reduced" warning appeared while the car was charged to 190 miles range. I tried to charge it beyond that and got "charge complete" message, then left it in the driveway -- I don't know what the charge level has been capped at but want to preserve what range I have so I can get it to the SC. Made service appointment on app then got a call from Tesla couple of hours later saying they had remotely analyzed the battery and it needs to be replaced. Tech said it appears that "one brick is shorted." I pressed for more clarity but didn't get it; all he said is that at least one module is defective.

Tesla is giving me option of buying either a remanufactured battery or a new battery; both are 90kWh, and both have same 4 year / 50K mile warranty. Tech said the reman battery would be expected to begin life in my car with about 5% degradation compared to the new battery. Remanufactured (1102982-01-A) is $11,500. New (1101078-00-A) is $21,000. Tech was unable to tell me about actual wait time for either battery to arrive at the White Plains SC but said "about a week."

I'm aware of Electrified Garage, 057 Technology, and ReCell, and have reached out to all for information.

I may be nuts but I am actually leaning toward investing the $21,000 in this older car for the brand new battery -- I would then have $50K in the car. My logic is that I would then have a P90 with something like 290+ miles range at 100% SOC, and, more importantly, I would expect the free supercharging to be much faster for at least the first several years. I would also expect to get 8 - 10 years from the new battery, even if the warranty is only for 4 years, so amortized cost over ten years is not insane. I am also wary of buying a remanufactured battery from Tesla or third parties given that the reman in the car, which was installed 25 months ago, has apparently failed fatally (and is not warrantied as the original 8 year warranty is expired). I love the car and don't have any desire for self-driving or even auto-pilot features, and the car seems to be solid and in very good shape apart from the HV battery. Although I have many other things I'd rather use the money for, I can swing this if it makes sense.

So looking for a reality check here. Are my assumptions above correct? Is my logic flawed and is there a better way to think about this? Thanks in advance--

 

[JoshK]

My 2013 ms85 just got the service soon error and the charge dropped from 50% to 0% overnight. Assuming it's replacement time but advisor said it could be contactor. Feel lucky I snagged a loaner for what could be a long wait.

Didn't realize Gruber is on 1 year wait timeframe at this point. Electrified Garage told me that they could swap a battery but id have to source it.

@airsailor I'm leaning towards investing despite the risks as well. Bought mine at 169k for $26,000 in 2018. No issues for past 4 years. Saved thousands in gas with mostly home charging and some supercharging. With a $14-20k battery I'm only in 40k and see some selling for as much without new battery

 

[dark cloud]

Didn't realize Gruber is on 1 year wait timeframe at this point.

Is that because he is actually busy? Or does he need that long to learn what to do?

 

[dark cloud]

And, if so, I have what they told me is a "90 kW pack" but only about 79 kW is usable? Jeesh. I see that my invoice from Tesla states that it's a 90kW pack, even though the label on the pack does not.

I don't know if this is informative or not, but was just at a service centre last weekend and noticed a battery crate, which I assume was a recent shipment, which specified the 90kWh number. No idea whether this would be specified on the invoice or on the battery.
Edit: on second thought this may be a failed unit going back to Tesla for refurbishment.

What is the meaning of S6 on your battery sticker?

 

[airsailor]

@Droschke , @gaswalla, @lightningltd, @wk057, Charging update: Supercharged this morning, only car at 8-bay station, 64F, car had preconditioned battery for 12 minutes before arrival, began with 193 miles range and pulled 68 kW / 228 mi/hr. At 98% SOC pulled 32 kW / 107 mi/hr; at 99% same rate; and at end with 272 miles range it showed 30kW / 100 mi/hr. Immediately drove and had full regen of 60 kW.

From what I gather from you all, this strongly suggests that the battery has additional capacity and is software capped at approximately 93% of full capacity, if these packs typically have approx. 290 - 294 miles range for a Performance RWD car, (297 for non-P RWD).

So, the questions now are:
Should I feel comfortable charging to 100% and utilizing the full 272 range with the idea that I'm actually charging to 93%?
Should I push Tesla to uncork the battery, at least to 280 range, since they emphatically told me it would not be software capped?

None of this is pressing -- more of an intellectual puzzle and the desire to get Tesla to honor their word.

 

[airsailor]

@JoshK

I'm leaning towards investing despite the risks as well. Bought mine at 169k for $26,000 in 2018. No issues for past 4 years. Saved thousands in gas with mostly home charging and some supercharging. With a $14-20k battery I'm only in 40k and see some selling for as much without new battery

Josh, the jury is still out, and will be for some years, about whether my decision to drop $20K on my 2012 S was a decent move. The preponderance of feedback was that it would be foolhardy given the reliability issues of the earliest Teslas. However, there was also feedback from an owner with 300K+ miles on his 2012 that the car was relatively trouble free after sorting out initial teething problems in the early years, and he had great success with the battery replacement we're discussing here. It sounds to me like your math works out OK, but I'm also of the opinion that these cars are not savings accounts, and it's OK to throw money at a vehicle you really like, even if it results in having invested more than you can back out of it, if one's enjoyment is enough reward. Of course, I've never owned a new car, and all my stuff is 20 - 40 years old, so take this with a grain of salt. I do think there's going to be a little cluster of us who decide to try to keep these early cars going for a couple of decades or longer - I don't view them as disposable. Let us know what you decide.

 

[danielk04]

@Droschke , @gaswalla, @lightningltd, @wk057, Charging update: Supercharged this morning, only car at 8-bay station, 64F, car had preconditioned battery for 12 minutes before arrival, began with 193 miles range and pulled 68 kW / 228 mi/hr. At 98% SOC pulled 32 kW / 107 mi/hr; at 99% same rate; and at end with 272 miles range it showed 30kW / 100 mi/hr. Immediately drove and had full regen of 60 kW.

From what I gather from you all, this strongly suggests that the battery has additional capacity and is software capped at approximately 93% of full capacity, if these packs typically have approx. 290 - 294 miles range for a Performance RWD car, (297 for non-P RWD).

So, the questions now are:
Should I feel comfortable charging to 100% and utilizing the full 272 range with the idea that I'm actually charging to 93%?
Should I push Tesla to uncork the battery, at least to 280 range, since they emphatically told me it would not be software capped?

None of this is pressing -- more of an intellectual puzzle and the desire to get Tesla to honor their word.

Okay Mr. Intellectual Puzzle, when are you going to get Scan My Tesla and see if your full tank stops charging at 4.1 volts per cell or 4.2 volts per cell?
If you want a real puzzle, see if you can figure out how to remove the Tesla charging cap on your battery, that will keep you busy for a while.
270 miles for a 85 kwh hour pack is great, imo.
Get Tesla to honor their word? No chance whatsoever.

 

[airsailor]

270 miles for a 85 kwh hour pack is great, imo.
Get Tesla to honor their word? No chance whatsoever.

Ha! You're right, I'm sure. I should stop chewing this over and get back to my actual work.... Agree, the 270 is very nice and completely workable for my purposes.

 

[Droschke]

@Droschke , @gaswalla, @lightningltd, @wk057, Charging update: Supercharged this morning, only car at 8-bay station, 64F, car had preconditioned battery for 12 minutes before arrival, began with 193 miles range and pulled 68 kW / 228 mi/hr. At 98% SOC pulled 32 kW / 107 mi/hr; at 99% same rate; and at end with 272 miles range it showed 30kW / 100 mi/hr. Immediately drove and had full regen of 60 kW.

From what I gather from you all, this strongly suggests that the battery has additional capacity and is software capped at approximately 93% of full capacity, if these packs typically have approx. 290 - 294 miles range for a Performance RWD car, (297 for non-P RWD).

So, the questions now are:
Should I feel comfortable charging to 100% and utilizing the full 272 range with the idea that I'm actually charging to 93%?
Should I push Tesla to uncork the battery, at least to 280 range, since they emphatically told me it would not be software capped?

None of this is pressing -- more of an intellectual puzzle and the desire to get Tesla to honor their word.

Looks like you are locked at the top as I thought. I also think a fully unlocked 1014116-00-C 90kWh pack, with new cells in it, should give your car more than 280 miles range. But, the 280 figure was agreed for the price you paid out of pocket. I think they should honor that since you paid for it.

Also, that buffer at the top is a good thing to have IMO.

 

[lightningltd]

Wow, this is fascinating. So the pack is physically the same as the original 85 kW battery but the improved cell chemistry results in range of +/- 297 vs. the original 265 in the early RWD cars?

But I actually didn't pay for a new 85 battery; I paid for a new 90 battery. My question prior to going ahead was "Will all of the new 90 kW battery's capacity be available to me or will it be capped, and will supercharging be throttled as it was with my old battery?" A Tesla rep called me and told me definitively that since I was paying for a brand new 90 kW battery it would not be capped, I would have about 280 miles of range, and super-charging would not be slowed-down.

After submitting my concern about not getting 280 miles this morning, I've been invited to schedule a call with a rep. Before I do that I want to really understand the situation with these batteries. I'm going to supercharge to 100% SOC tomorrow morning and take careful notes of charge rate as it approaches 100%, then check to see if regen is available and how much. I don't know a thing about getting CANBUS data but I'll look into it, unless one of you care to fill me in -- seems like it may be a good idea to collect that data before my call with the Tesla rep. Even though I am basically content with 270 range, and I understand that it's advantageous to have some "headroom" from a software cap, I may push Tesla here simply because I was told in no uncertain terms that the battery would not be capped, and they should do what they say they are going to do, especially when a customer ponies up $20K.

This is far more interesting than I thought!

Technically (as some have said, including my Service Advisor), 1014116-00-c is a 100kw pack with 2 modules removed, making it a 90 pack. If you requested and paid for a 90 kw pack and they agreed, I would discuss it with them. Worst they can say is no.

 

[lightningltd]

I don't know if this is informative or not, but was just at a service centre last weekend and noticed a battery crate, which I assume was a recent shipment, which specified the 90kWh number. No idea whether this would be specified on the invoice or on the battery.
Edit: on second thought this may be a failed unit going back to Tesla for refurbishment.

What is the meaning of S6 on your battery sticker?

If you mean the SX, it means the battery is for the model S and X cars