2012 S60 vs 2016 S60

[Adm]

I am trying to compare the original S60 with today's S60. Some of the specs are easy, but I have a problem with the EPA range. If I remember correctly the EPA cycle changed in the mean time and I am having trouble finding out how to compare today's 210 mi to 208 mi in 2012.
I suspect the car has become more efficient, but it's no so easy to quantify it.

Help is appreciated.

 

[ggnykk]

The new S60 is massively superior to the old S60. The new S60 supercharger two times faster than the old S60. If you are posting this for your purchasing decision, DON'T buy the old S60 at any cost.

 

[Saghost]

Refresh cars are slightly more efficient - presumably by being slightly more aerodynamic. Compare a 2015 90D with a 2016 90D - theoretically the same cars except for the refresh. Then you can take that percentage change back to the new 60 to see how that compares.

But the new 60 isn't really a 60 - it's a 75 with a software limit.

This has a bunch of implications, including more power available, faster supercharging (much less taper) minimal effect from charging to 100%, and more weight (the 75 pack weighs the same as a 70 pack, which I think is ~40 pounds more than a 60 pack, though wikipedia seems to be saying the difference between a 60D and a 70D is only 5 kg/11 pounds.)

And as the poster above said, if it's a buying decision then you have a bunch of other factors - starting with the big one: Autopilot. Even if you don't buy the convenience features immediately, you get the sensors and safety features. Also all of the "20 per week" changes to improve fit/finish/build/reliability. New cars all have the smallest Frunk to date, though about the only advantage (aside from cost) to the older cars I can think of.

 

[Canuck]

DON'T buy the old S60 at any cost.

Such silly nonsense. If someone can replace their ICE with an old S60 for say $25k, they shouldn't do it right? In fact, don't even do it if it costs $1 -- not "at any cost" -- with all caps for for the "DON'T" -- Like it will explode in your driveway.

The old S60's are great cars. If you can afford a P100D you'll like it better, of course, but there's nothing wrong with an "old" S60.

The new S60 supercharger two times faster than the old S60.

Not true. Yes, the new ones don't taper, but that's assuming you always charge to 100% at a Supercharger. You're not going to be charging twice as fast if you arrive with both vehicles at a low battery up to 80% which is what usually happens, and even accounting for taper, you're not cutting your charging time in half.

If I remember correctly the EPA cycle changed in the mean time and I am having trouble finding out how to compare today's 210 mi to 208 mi in 2012. I suspect the car has become more efficient, but it's no so easy to quantify it. Help is appreciated.

The new 60's are really only software limited 75's, so the comparison is even more complicated. Of course, the new 60's are better in so many ways, but I would consider the benefits of the battery being the fact that you can always pay to unlock it if range is an issue, whereas you don't have that option with an old S60.

New cars all have the smallest Frunk to date, though about the only advantage (aside from cost) to the older cars I can think of.

80 amp charging (old) vs. 72 amp (new) is another "downgrade" to the newer vehicles.

 

[ggnykk]

The old S60 supercharging speed is a LOT slower.

 

[Canuck]

The old S60 supercharging speed is a LOT slower.

And comparing a 60 vs.85 proves that point? This discussion has to do with new 60 vs. old 60. Not old 60 vs. 85.

Plus, here's the analysis of the video you posted, if you took just a moment to read the comments:

"Bjorn had me a little concerned here about the 60 kWh, so I repeated his test on the new Supercharger here in West Hartford, CT prior to it's grand opening. I just confirmed 98 kW on my 60 kWh after arriving fully warmed up and with 15 miles (24 km) of range remaining. At the same charge state, the 60 kWh in Bjorn's video was hitting only 77 kW. The Bjorn video shows adding +136 miles in 56 minutes (ave 2.4 miles/min). Today I added +157 miles in 51 minutes = 3.1 miles/min. And, I let mine charge to almost 90% which slows down the average relative to Bjorn's 80% limit. The 85 kWh in Bjorn's video charged at an average of 180 miles / 46 minutes = 3.9 miles/minute. I would expect the 85 kWh to add range approximately 26% faster than the 60 kWh which would be exactly 3.9 miles/minute when I scale my 60 kWh results up by 26%. Bottom line is the 60 kWh has 26% less range but takes the same time (within close proximity) to reach 80% SOC while supercharging. Hence, the "C" factor is likely identical to the 85kWh which fundamentally makes sense. I certainly believe Bjorn's video was factual, but didn't explain what actually caused the difference. A day earlier when I arrived with 60% SOC and after driving only 10 miles in rainy colder weather, I couldn't get more than 40 kW charge rate. There were no vehicles next to mine on either day. "

So please tell me what your video above proves? Have you always drawn the same rate at a supercharger? Even at the same superchargers, my vehicle has draw different rates on different days, at the same state of charge, and that's without someone charging right beside me, of course.

 

[JPUConn]

I think it all depends on budget and must haves. The classic 60 is still a Tesla so in my opinion it's better than no Tesla at all.

Early 60's (pre ap) can be had for high 30's with options. that's a substantial difference for folks with a budget vs the new 60 at twice the price with no options.

People had this debate on the Viper boards over the 2013 Gen 5 viper making the gen 3 and 4 worthless. Heck my 2006 Gen3 wasn't as great as the $100k+ gen5 and lacked features like cruise control or Bluetooth but for $55k it was a bad@ss viper that I could afford.

 

[Saghost]

One more thought I didn't see mentioned, if you're thinking about buying used: The original 60 (and 40, if you can find one) is the only Tesla to date which *doesn't* include free supercharging. It's a $2500 charge for Tesla to enable it if the particular car you're considering didn't have it enabled yet.

 

[joninmelbourne]

The old 60 had 4 KWH blocked off as an anti bricking feature. The new one may have the whole 60 available.

 

[doubleohwhat]

The old 60 had 4 KWH blocked off as an anti bricking feature. The new one may have the whole 60 available.

That might help explain why the trip planning websites (evtripping, evtripplanner, etc) aren't accurate for the new S60.

 

[commasign]

Here are all the features a base 2016 Tesla Model S 60 ($57,500 after federal incentive and referral discount) includes as standard that were not available or were options on earlier 2012-2014 Tesla Model S 60 (previously priced at $59,900 after incentives).

Autopilot hardware and safety features (front and side collision avoidance,
blind spot warning, lane departure warning, speed limit display)
12-way power adjustable heated seats
Tech package (navigation with real-time traffic, auto-presenting door handles, power folding mirrors, homelink, driver profiles, daytime running lights) - $3750
Alcantara headliner - $500
Wood decor - $650
Supercharging - $2000
Parking sensors - $500
Premium center console - $600
Rear cupholders - $150 (floor mounted) or $600 (for rear console)
Parcel shelf - $250
Turbine-style aerodynamic 19” wheels - $2500

This adds up to over $8000 in “freebies” compared to the base model 2012 Tesla Model S.

Additionally, the full 75 kWh battery capacity, Autopilot convenience features (traffic aware cruise control, auto steer, auto park, auto high beams, and summon), and high amperage charging are available as software unlockable upgrades. This is a great way to get into a Tesla without having to buy all the upgrades upfront.

 

[jcaspar]

And there are a few things the base 2012 Tesla Model S came with that the base 2016 doesn't:
Power lift gate
Lighted door handles (3000$ extra to get these (and more things) with the new model)

And a few things that are just not available at any price in the new Model S:
Full size frunk
80 Amp level 2 charging.
Lacewood, piano black and vertical obeche wood trims
Brown, Green, dolphin grey colors

If you could find a 2012 60 for 25K$ you would be far ahead of a new 60 in value.

And of course, if you already have a 2012 60, the 4 years of ownership and having been a true early adopter are priceless!

 

[MP3Mike]

The old 60 had 4 KWH blocked off as an anti bricking feature. The new one may have the whole 60 available.

Where is your evidence for that?

 

[joninmelbourne]

MP3Mike people all over these forums mentions a 4 or 5kwh buffer to stop bricking on a completely flat battery. Not sure where they got it from but you can test. People who have supercharged from 1 mile range left only use 55kwh of energy suggesting that there is some left spare. There has to be some left spare as legally the Model S needs to be able to have hazard lights on and be able to be towed with lights on and have doors still open without hitting the emergency release.

 

[jelloslug]

One more thought I didn't see mentioned, if you're thinking about buying used: The original 60 (and 40, if you can find one) is the only Tesla to date which *doesn't* include free supercharging. It's a $2500 charge for Tesla to enable it if the particular car you're considering didn't have it enabled yet.

Supercharging was an option on the early 2013 85 that we have at work.

 

[David_Cary]

Supercharging was an option on the early 2013 85 that we have at work.

Are you sure? Like you bought it yourself and have the exact paperwork.

Lots of cars list supercharging as an option when it wasn't. I've been a forum member since my first deposit in late 2012, and supercharging has always been included on an 85. There have been numerous instances where that was forgotten and/or mistaken.

 

[David_Cary]

Where are these mysterious S60's for $30k, I'd like one for my wife?

New is a superior car and used is really hard to justify above $45k. Well unless you think you need 80A over the 72A .

The EPA has not changed in the time period. It changed right before the S was released and that is the last change that affected Tesla. There was the ruling mid 2013 that punished 100%/80% charge settings but the slider bar got Telsa around that.

I have full confidence that a new S60 can go a bit farther than an old S60 (with a battery frozen in time). Of course, the old S60 would have some degradation too. New has Primacy standard which was claimed a 3% increase when it was an option. New has slipstream rims which also claimed something similar back when it was an option (new slipstream is not quite exactly old slipstream however). And of course the weight savings over time probably balance the bigger battery in the new S60. And lastly, the new front is good for .5% or so. (my guess)

All in all, the roadtrip range on a new S60 is probably better than old more than the EPA estimates. EPA doesn't take aero into account enough. Also generally, the highway range probably went up more than city. While I haven't looked up the highway portion, I suspect they are further apart than 2 miles.

 

[Jopo43]

yes where do the s60's for 30k exist?

 

[hingisfan]

New 60 is fantastic, but if you can get a classic for half the price, that's a tremendous bargain! I currently drive a pre AP 2014 60 and I'd love to upgrade to an AP model, but I'm certainly not paying the 40k it's currently going to cost me.

 

[jelloslug]

Are you sure? Like you bought it yourself and have the exact paperwork.

Lots of cars list supercharging as an option when it wasn't. I've been a forum member since my first deposit in late 2012, and supercharging has always been included on an 85. There have been numerous instances where that was forgotten and/or mistaken.

Yes, I helped pick out the options and saw the paperwork.