2013 85 vs. new 70D observations

[EKnight47]

We've had our S85 for about 2.5 years and have loved every minute of it. My wife is not a car person at all, but with the Tesla it's a different story. We live in New England and the while the rear wheel drive isn't bad in the snow, we shy away from taking it to the mountains and on occasion we find ourselves having to dig a path through the snow to get up our driveway. So, this weekend we decided to take a look at the 70D and take it for a spin. I had not driven any AWD version yet, nor had I experienced AP. AWD is a different experience....less of a push feel and more of a launch feel...if that makes sense. And, the AP and additional safety features were very cool and helped with selling the idea of trading to the wife.

While the AP and AWD was cool, what I coudn't get over is the difference in overall quality of build, "solidness" and how much quieter the car was than my VIN 19847. It's night and day. They've made some real improvement to the overall quality and feel of the interior and the overall feel of the car. Hard to explain, but it's pretty significant.

So now I am trying to decide.....do I go with a 70D and save some money (about the same performance and only about 10 miles less range at this point) or do I go for the 85/90D.

And here's a question.......why does tesla only show their RWD inventory cars on the website? They have plenty of AWD inventory cars out there.....

 

[chriSharek]

I'm in Florida and don't need the AWD but for the occasional torrential downpour of rain. Having said that, considering resale value, increased SP charging time, battery degradation and performance, I opted for the 85D over the 70D. There is a significant performance boost!

 

[EKnight47]

I'm in Florida and don't need the AWD but for the occasional torrential downpour of rain. Having said that, considering resale value, increased SP charging time, battery degradation and performance, I opted for the 85D over the 70D. There is a significant performance boost!

What is increased SP charging time?

And, signficant boost in performance from 70D to 85D for sure, but a 70D is an improvement from my S85.....

 

[chriSharek]

Supercharging time - sorry, not the right acronym. Having a bigger battery means it will charge quicker - has to do with the charging curve.

There were side by side youtube vids done with the 85 vs the 60. I'm sure there are similar ones with the 70.

 

[EKnight47]

Supercharging time - sorry, not the right acronym. Having a bigger battery means it will charge quicker - has to do with the charging curve.

There were side by side youtube vids done with the 85 vs the 60. I'm sure there are similar ones with the 70.

That's interesting....didn't realize that. Thanks for the heads up. Trying to find an inventory car so I can get it before year end.

 

[Max*]

That's interesting....didn't realize that. Thanks for the heads up. Trying to find an inventory car so I can get it before year end.

Chris is correct, the 85D will charge faster than a 70D.

I'm not sure about 90D vs. 85D/70D, but I believe so too (there are tables and videos all over TMC, I'm too lazy to search for it).

IIRC, on a roadtrip to go from SpC to SpC we're talking about maybe 5minutes difference at each stop. So if you're doing a 500mile trip, you might add 10-15minutes charging time in a 70kwh compared to an 85kwh model.

 

[SabrToothSqrl]

I drove a S90D and loved it, however the trade in of mine vs. price of new (or CPO) was... not for me... If I'm going to have to spend 50k out of pocket, it's going to be to get my a X. (which is also AWD) Plus my wife likes the sedan more, so maybe she will end up with the S, and I'll get my X

 

[EKnight47]

Chris is correct, the 85D will charge faster than a 70D.

I'm not sure about 90D vs. 85D/70D, but I believe so too (there are tables and videos all over TMC, I'm too lazy to search for it).

IIRC, on a roadtrip to go from SpC to SpC we're talking about maybe 5minutes difference at each stop. So if you're doing a 500mile trip, you might add 10-15minutes charging time in a 70kwh compared to an 85kwh model.

Thanks for the stats/times. Living in New Englad I feel like everything is an "hour away" at most (RI, NH, VT, ME) that we drive to. That, and the Supercharger network and destination charging options are plentiful (they just added chargers at Loon Mountain!!). I think I am leaning towards a loaded 70D.

 

[Max*]

Thanks for the stats/times. Living in New Englad I feel like everything is an "hour away" at most (RI, NH, VT, ME) that we drive to. That, and the Supercharger network and destination charging options are plentiful (they just added chargers at Loon Mountain!!). I think I am leaning towards a loaded 70D.

No worries, a quick google search turned up the results, I guess I'm not that lazy: Model S supercharging times compared S60, S70D, S85, P85D, S85D | Forums | Tesla Motors

Additional time compared to the 85D:

My memory was close, 7minutes per SpC extra, not 5mins. So a 500mile trip is about 20 extra mins SpC.

(acceleration aside), the 70D range for me on the east coast is more than enough. Going DC<->Boston I skip a bunch of SpC's even with my 70D, I don't think I could skip more with an 85D.

 

[arg]

While those tables are very handy, they do miss a couple of relevant factors:

1) The tables don't allow for extra energy used in winter driving, which affects all models equally in terms of absolute kWh used but therefore affects the '70 rather more - both as a percentage of the available energy, and because the taking on that extra energy will push further into the taper and so take longer.

2) The tables only consider the best case of running along a route with superchargers at convenient spacing. Cases where you need to charge to a higher level, due to wider gaps between superchargers, or going for a trip off the supercharger route where you need to charge to a high level on the last/only supercharger can have bigger impact.

 

[Max*]

While those tables are very handy, they do miss a couple of relevant factors:

1) The tables don't allow for extra energy used in winter driving, which affects all models equally in terms of absolute kWh used but therefore affects the '70 rather more - both as a percentage of the available energy, and because the taking on that extra energy will push further into the taper and so take longer.

2) The tables only consider the best case of running along a route with superchargers at convenient spacing. Cases where you need to charge to a higher level, due to wider gaps between superchargers, or going for a trip off the supercharger route where you need to charge to a high level on the last/only supercharger can have bigger impact.

Not entirely true, but your "big picture" point is correct (it's not "convenient spacing" it's 115miles equal spacing, as per the link. And he's assuming that 115 driven miles is 132 rated miles, which means he's accounting for either bad weather or speeding in his math).

Everyone has their own needs. If you have a corner case - live in a SpCing desert, live in very cold climate, regularly drive 200+ miles a day, etc. then it's a clear choice. The OP didn't mention anything about needing extra range, just comparing the pros and cons of the 70kwh vs. 85kwh battery, and the tables were to just give an idea of how much extra time the average trip will take.

 

[RockinWithKids]

I have been going back and forth on the 85 v 85D v 70D for a while. Bjorn took a 70D on a trip that he's done with his P85 and the 1200km trip (745 miles) and he clocked the 70D at only 15 minutes longer than the P85.

#19 Tesla Model S road trips: 70D review part 2 - YouTube

I don't need the extra performance of the (P)85D. Thus, for the rare times I will drive over 400 miles in a day I am going to pocket the $5K-10K, enjoy the >1K lattes it'll buy and purchase the 70D.

 

[GasKilla]

And here's a question.......why does tesla only show their RWD inventory cars on the website? They have plenty of AWD inventory cars out there.....

You can goto your local store and ask what 70D inventory cars they have for sale. They will have more options than what you will find on the web. That said there are 8 Ds listed and they are all P85Ds

 

[Wshowell]

Can you be more specific on "build quality" please? Those of us trying to decide between lower vin CPO fully loaded cars versus new but stripped would benefit from additional details. Obviously there will be feature trade offs between new versus used/older and I expect some small variation of quality but I'd like to better understand what and where you noticed the largest differences. I'm fully aware of no AP, no parking sensors,folding mirrors etc and accept those differences but poor fitting panels, leaks, rattles and noise I'm less willing to compromise on.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Normally this is one of those really hard questions because the person asking it has no idea what the Tesla experience is. They have no idea about how the car itself makes you want to drive it more.

But, the OP does have lots of experiences. The extra time to supercharge is an important aspect, but it's also important to note that it's really only when you need X amount of miles where X starts to require >85% or so. Generally you want to avoid the charge taper. The 90D allows you to avoid it the most.

In real world situations does it really mean much? You can easily end up spending longer at the charger if you have to share with someone with the same stall #. Or if someone pulls up while you just started charging. Sure you'll get most, but most is not 100%.

Even if you do manage not to have to share the waitress could take 7 min longer than normal to get you your check. Or you could get caught up in a conversation that takes longer than 7 min.

On my most recent road trip to Cali I seemed to have pretty much the same timing as someone with an 85D on the same route. They left the charger on average about 10 min before I did, and then I would pass them a little bit before the next supercharger. For whatever reason the speed limit meant the speed limit to them. Have no idea why.

I have a 70D, and I have absolutely no regrets in not opting for the 85D. Sure the extra speed would be nice, but when isn't it? Sure the extra range is useful, but it's all a relative thing. Hell I'm not going to be REALLY happy until I can 300+ miles in 0 degree weather at 80mph.

 

[EKnight47]

Can you be more specific on "build quality" please? Those of us trying to decide between lower vin CPO fully loaded cars versus new but stripped would benefit from additional details. Obviously there will be feature trade offs between new versus used/older and I expect some small variation of quality but I'd like to better understand what and where you noticed the largest differences. I'm fully aware of no AP, no parking sensors,folding mirrors etc and accept those differences but poor fitting panels, leaks, rattles and noise I'm less willing to compromise on.

It's hard to explain....but I'll try. First, I noticed the car was much quieter than mine. Even with the extra motor of front, the road noise and noise from the moving parts in the vehicle were much quieter. Doors/panels/fit an finish all very tight and overall felt more solid - almost as if the doors are heavier. I currently have air suspension and I'm not sure if the 70D I drove had coils or AS but the ride also seemed smoother/less harsh on the potholes. I'm a big guy so I wasn't sure that I'd like the new seats, but they make a big difference as well. I don't have the upgraded interior currently and the 70D I drive does have the extended leather trim, etc...so that's a variable as well.

All this said, my current 2013 85 is still an amazing car and any rattles it has are fixed quickly and at no cost. I'm sort of struggling with trading my 85 for the 70D, but given all the hardware upgrades I've missed and the fact that I don't need the extra range...I just may do it.

 

[mknox]

Can you be more specific on "build quality" please?

I have an early 2013 (VIN 06XXX) car and while it is still very solid and squeak/rattle free, there is and always has been more road noise than I would have expected. When I've had new(er) loaners, the big difference to me is that they seem to be quieter on the highway. Probably more and/or improved sound insulation in the car. But the interior materials, fit and finish etc. on my car doesn't seem any better or worse than new cars I've driven, but of course I don't have the next-gen seats.

 

[donv]

I went from a vin 14xxx to an 85D (111xxx) a month ago. I really agree with what you are saying about the noise, and about the doors, in particular. I'm really happy with the 85D.

 

[Oba]

I'm sort of struggling with trading my 85 for the 70D, but given all the hardware upgrades I've missed and the fact that I don't need the extra range...I just may do it.

Buying a car is mostly an emotional experience. We do not "need" to save 7 minutes per charge, or accelerate a few tenths of a second faster. The last thing that we absolutely don't need is a car with more range than is needed to go from Supercharger to Supercharger. So, as has been stated, if you're in the edge case where every last mile is important (North Dakota, Alaska, most of Canada, etc), then get the 90D.

Otherwise, if the 70D can perform its tasks to your satisfaction at the COLDEST temperature and MAXIMUM DEGRADATION expected over the ownership / lease period, then that's the car. If 7 minutes is important, fly. If acceleration is important, then buy the really fast Porsche.

 

[EKnight47]

Buying a car is mostly an emotional experience. We do not "need" to save 7 minutes per charge, or accelerate a few tenths of a second faster. The last thing that we absolutely don't need is a car with more range than is needed to go from Supercharger to Supercharger. So, as has been stated, if you're in the edge case where every last mile is important (North Dakota, Alaska, most of Canada, etc), then get the 90D.

Otherwise, if the 70D can perform its tasks to your satisfaction at the COLDEST temperature and MAXIMUM DEGRADATION expected over the ownership / lease period, then that's the car. If 7 minutes is important, fly. If acceleration is important, then buy the really fast Porsche.

Well my trade in number after inspection just came in almost $8k less than the estimated number. So unless they can close that gap, I'll be in my 85 for a while longer.