Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

2013 Model S sudden battery failure

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
It just seems pretty risky from a financial point of view to hold any Tesla once its battery pack warranty is over.
I agree, but I think it’s also possible to consider that risk and come out ahead.

I bought my car expecting a useful life of 8 years. That said, I could see some value in keeping it 10, but would consider those two extra years like “bonus” years. If it crapped out after 8 years and a day, that would be a bummer, but I’d basically sell it for scrap and move on having got what I expected out of the car. On the contrary, if it kept going for another 2 years without major issues, that’s clearly a financial benefit.

People are naturally risk averse and thus place more value on things like warranties than would otherwise pencil out - but if you get down to cold hard numbers I think it’s rarely if ever financially beneficial to dump a depreciated out of warranty car for a new one with a warranty to avoid repair costs. Of course there are lots of other reasons to want a new car - chief among them “because I want one”, and I totally get that too. That new car smell…. ;)
 
Yes, I have. I had reached out to multiple service centers and I would get one of below:
1.) I would be totally ghosted when sending email inquiry. No response on emails regarding alternative battery replacement.
2.) Visiting in person result in "Sorry we only do brand new battery replacement that your vehicle qualify for which is the 90kwh pack."

😩
Ugh, what a bummer. Particularly as plenty of others have posted here confirming they were offered and received refurbished packs at a considerable savings.

This is the sort of inconsistency that really makes me nervous about continuing to own a Tesla.
 
Resolution: Replaced the original, just-out-of-warranty S85 HV battery with 62K miles for $11k. Traded car for a sophisticated German plug-in hybrid with a 7 year warranty, 35-40 mpg with zero range anxiety, backed by a responsive, courteous, transparent local SC. There were some high points to our 8 1/2 year Model S experience but in the overall it was a massive disappointment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: cwerdna
Resolution: Replaced the original, just-out-of-warranty S85 HV battery with 62K miles for $11k. Traded car for a sophisticated German plug-in hybrid with a 7 year warranty, 35-40 mpg with zero range anxiety, backed by a responsive, courteous, transparent local SC. There were some high points to our 8 1/2 year Model S experience but in the overall it was a massive disappointment.
Please report back in 8.5 years of this car ownership for a better comparison.
 
Resolution: Replaced the original, just-out-of-warranty S85 HV battery with 62K miles for $11k. Traded car for a sophisticated German plug-in hybrid with a 7 year warranty, 35-40 mpg with zero range anxiety, backed by a responsive, courteous, transparent local SC. There were some high points to our 8 1/2 year Model S experience but in the overall it was a massive disappointment.
My feelings after 9-1/2 years are basically yours,

Some low points over 9-1/2 years,
overall it was a revolutionary, expensive, disappointment.
In the end it is just an expensive disappointment.
…I’ll buy two more…
 
  • Funny
Reactions: AustinP
Quick update: The order for new 90kwh pack was initiated by Tesla on Jan 2022. Just yesterday Tesla service center reached out to let us know that a HV Battery pack for my VIN finally hit their lot. Unfortunately it's not the 90kwh I had originally ordered. Tesla shipped a reman 85kwh PN 1088815-01-F. Any thoughts on this PN revision?

I must have spent hours researching the internet about revision F and only a couple of posts within TMC. At this point, I pulled the trigger and gave Tesla the go to install the reman pack. The reman pack is $12.6k installed instead of the $25kish for the new 90kwh we had originally ordered. We haven't driven the car in a year and a half so we will take what we can get at this point. Since this is customer paid part, I was assured it will have 4yr / 50k warranty on HV Battery. Also got the vehicle scheduled for eMMC and LTE upgrade. Hoping to get near 240ish miles of range on 90% SoC. We will find out next week - crossing fingers all go well.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Droschke
Quick update: The order for new 90kwh pack was initiated by Tesla on Jan 2022. Just yesterday Tesla service center reached out to let us know that a HV Battery pack for my VIN finally hit their lot. Unfortunately it's not the 90kwh I had originally ordered. Tesla shipped a reman 85kwh PN 1088815-01-F. Any thoughts on this PN revision?

I must have spent hours researching the internet about revision F and only a couple of posts within TMC. At this point, I pulled the trigger and gave Tesla the go to install the reman pack. The reman pack is $12.6k installed instead of the $25kish for the new 90kwh we had originally ordered. We haven't driven the car in a year and a half so we will take what we can get at this point. Since this is customer paid part, I was assured it will have 4yr / 50k warranty on HV Battery. Also got the vehicle scheduled for eMMC and LTE upgrade. Hoping to get near 240ish miles of range on 90% SoC. We will find out next week - crossing fingers all go well.

That's pretty bad since you had mentioned being told by Tesla that your car only qualifies for a brand new 90kWh battery pack!
 
  • Like
Reactions: BostonBurley
That's pretty bad since you had mentioned being told by Tesla that your car only qualifies for a brand new 90kWh battery pack!
Yes no kidding. I actually wanted to get the reman in the beginning since it made more sense financially at the time than the 25k 90kwh new pack. Tesla switched up on me. I know there's a much higher focus on making the battery packs for new vehicle sales. It's just getting ridiculous that we're losing support on older vehicles.

We also have a 2018 MX 75D and now we're worried that once the pack goes bad, we will suffer the same as we did with the 2013 MS 85.

No 85 does 240 miles at 90%.
Brand new they're like 265 at 100%. A reman wont be close.
Yes, agreed. I'm just hoping. I know for a fact 90% on reman will be around 190-200 miles. I just hope that the replacement pack does not get affected with the dumb charge/battery gate otherwise I would be spending 12k for nothing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Droschke
That's pretty bad since you had mentioned being told by Tesla that your car only qualifies for a brand new 90kWh battery pack!
This. Someone’s word on behalf of Tesla could have cost him over $10k extra. Nothing new for the industry, but Tesla has to START being better. From one service center to another, to another, you’ll find three different points of view and likely, three different procedures and prices. My car hasn’t been operable for months and Tesla is zero help unless it involves $240/hr for an invoiced reminder that bc aftermarket parts exist on the vehicle, every part that needs replaced and labor for each one is outlined. Self-restricted diagnostics, you might call it.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Droschke
The reman part number isn't super useful, because the internals could be basically anything on a reman unfortunately. Without hooking up to the pack to examine it, no way to really know.

We're doing battery replacements pretty regularly over at 057 Tech. Even with freight costs it's usually still cheaper than anything Tesla offers. 🤷‍♂️
 
  • Like
Reactions: MP3Mike
The reman part number isn't super useful, because the internals could be basically anything on a reman unfortunately. Without hooking up to the pack to examine it, no way to really know.

We're doing battery replacements pretty regularly over at 057 Tech. Even with freight costs it's usually still cheaper than anything Tesla offers. 🤷‍♂️
Cost is still out of control IMO. This is a rant. The battery repair services are a big credit card payment or, for many in the price bracket, they need to get financing to repair. $6k, $7k, $8k, it’s too much. You should be able to inspect a battery and provide additional estimates for like $1500. Not $5,500. Maybe better diagnostic software and onboard sensors, in the future. I’m sure there’s a plan to bring cost down and so on but the gouging is out of control, whether Tesla or anyone else I’ve encountered. You can cut Tesla’s pricing in half and still be double or triple the fair price. Not the fair market price, though. That’s where we arrive at arbitrarily large numbers. Capitalist economy gonna capitalize.
 
You should be able to inspect a battery and provide additional estimates for like $1500.
… but the gouging is out of control
Lol, what sort of fantasy world are you living in? I imagine the labor cost alone just to remove an S/X battery and crack the case is approaching a thousand bucks. To say nothing of tools, shop overhead, transport, etc etc etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rocky_H
And we all know how that ended up. How many of those “90 second” swaps have they completed? File that one under “3 months maybe, 6 months definitely” - need I remind you Tesla has also “unveiled” a humanoid robot and self driving car…

The S/X battery is relatively easy to remove with the right equipment, certainly compared to the Model 3/Y. But watch some tear down videos to see what it takes to crack one open once you have it out.

In any case, my point is the thought that repairs “should be” in the $1500 range, just because that’s the number someone with no knowledge, experience, or understanding thinks is reasonable - is absurd. Taking it a step farther and accusing anyone charging more of “gouging” the market for exorbitant profit is just plain insulting.
 
A better statement should perhaps be - it should be designed to repair in the $XX range. It was always going to be the challenge with how Tesla designed the pack. They made it relatively easy to take out but not repair.

Interestingly, they went backward on the 3/Y ease of removal. I don't know how bad this is but it makes these cars potentially more disposable than the S's. That is very unfortunate from a longevity standpoint.

Obviously, Tesla had certain design constraints early on - repairability wasn't' a priority. But it is dissappointing that they haven't improved upon this and made part of it worse.
 
The Model S was never designed to be a cheap or easy repair, especially the battery pack. In fact, let's look at some history.

When Tesla designed the S battery pack, it was designed to be 100% non-serviceable. If any component within had an issue, it would need to be replaced entirely.

How do we know this?

Early on, Tesla used contactors within the packs from Tyco that were undersized for the job and failing after relatively short periods, depending on how the car was driven. (Tesla used their telemetry data to determine who drove their vehicles within the limits of these underspec'd components and only replaced them on cars where they figured they would fail instead of, oh I don't know, doing a recall to replace a critical component that doesn't function as designed... story for another time.) At first they were doing full pack swaps, then crating and shipping the original batteries to Fremont in order for the crews there to destructively open the battery packs, replace the contactors with updates components, and then fix and resealing everything.

There was no procedure for this. The batteries were never designed to be opened. The only semi-accessible component was the high-voltage fuse... which still required complete removal of the battery pack to access along with resealing that area.

Eventually, they came up with a rather ridiculous procedure that would take two techs about half a day (plus sealant set time) to perform at a service center in order to replace the failing Tyco contactors. At some point a random service tech in the field came up with a modification to that procedure, including a tool he designed and welded up himself, that helped speed up that whole process down to a couple of hours (plus sealant set time).

They performed this procedure on thousands of Model S over the years... even so, there are still quite a few out there that had never had the "proactive power switch replacement service" performed. I know because we still occasionally get cars with batteries that have these old Tyco contactors in them (usually barely functional and visibly burned from years of overuse).

Let's take the position of the 12V battery on the early S as another example. Tesla never intended for the 12V battery on the S to ever need replacing. Why would it need to be? We've got a giant battery under the car that can handle everything. This 12V should never get used. Let's put it in the least accessible place in the car!

This may have worked out for them, but early on customers complained of excessive vampire drain. The 12V was going to last forever, because the car rarely ever "slept." Instead, it'd sit there most of the time with the contactors closed, DC-DC converter active, its cooling pump running slowly, and other wasteful things pulling anywhere from 30-80 watts continuously. So, 3 to 7 miles of vampire drain on a good day, not even counting any of the early MCU sleep issues that could easily triple this.

Eventually Tesla tweaked the sleep setups of the MCU and BMS to disengage more things. This lead to a bit more wear on the undersized 12V battery... leading to early failures. This was before "12V battery needs to be replaced" warnings. Your warning would be that your car wouldn't unlock in the morning, wouldn't open, and otherwise would be non-responsive.

There wasn't a service procedure for replacing the 12V battery yet.

When they had to come up with one, the positioning is so ridiculous that it involves removing the windshield wipers, several pieces of underhood trim, the air filter and its box, an entire fuse block (disconnecting and labeling every one of the dozen+ wires first), and then after all of that, making a makeshift handle out of duct tape (yes, this is in the original official procedure) in order to help pull the 12V out of position, then a series of maneuvers to squeeze it through a spot never intended to be used for this purpose....... then do it all in reverse to install the new one. Time? At least an hour.

Battery swaps? LOL. That was doomed from day one. Yes, they clearly intended for these to be machine swappable. The connector designs and such are actually quite good with this in mind. In practice, however, not so great. The alignment of these connectors is never perfect. They're on springs, and any dirt/grit that gets into the wrong place will prevent them from fully engaging. A misalignment by just a couple of mm can actually cause a connector to break upon reinstall. Any automated setup would need to remove the battery, clean and align the connectors, install the new pack, and double check the seating of the connector. That last part is probably what killed swap stations. Automating that is probably impossible. Heck, it's difficult for humans even with the rear aero shield removed, let alone with nothing but the battery out. Good idea, but just not going to happen. Plus the logistics of it are too much of a nightmare. We've gotten enough cars in over the years with "Service Loaner" batteries to know that Tesla has no way of recovering a battery once its installed in a car.

Could go on and on, but let's fast forward a bit.

Today, the 12V batteries are way more accessible. Still not as easy as some ICE cars, but not objectively the worst possible replacement procedure ever conceived anymore.

No battery pack made after 2014 could ever hope to be automatically swapped at all, as the design changed sufficiently to kill automation. Then in 2016 the car-side connectors were completely changed and have zero play for alignment, requiring monitoring from the side upon install, which isn't possible with all panels in place. Then we have the Model 3, Y, and now the Plaid series... all of which have batteries that can't be removed at all without performing procedures on the inside of the car. Quick and easy battery swaps are dead dead dead dead.

The battery packs were updated to be slightly more serviceable in 2015. The rear are that houses the BMS, contactors, and other electronics was now accessible without destructive disassembly. The removal of the battery is still required, thought. The HV fuse panel was also flipped to the underside of the battery pack... meaning the fuse can now be replaced without removing the battery pack, if needed.

All of this said, there's one major point with regard to the battery packs: The batteries themselves were never intended to be replaced or repaired, and still are not. The only reason that the Model S was designed with manageable sized modules was ease of manufacturing, and less loss if they were to screw one up at build time (which seems to have happened a lot). If they had started with a Model 3-like monolithic module design, Tesla likely would have went bankrupt from failed modules since the process had not been perfected.

The module design within the battery does NOT mean these are individually replaceable. This was never intended, and does not work. This is not the design, and there are no exceptions. From a technical perspective, it's not possible either. (I've written about this many times, and noted more below.)

Tesla has always, from day 1, intended for the entire battery pack to be replaced in the event of any issue. And they stick to this, leading to very high costs to replace. Tesla's prices are actually very high because they give almost no value for the core battery pack, either. So with Tesla, after labor and parts, in a best case scenario you're looking at just under $14k or so for a replacement service.

At 057, we've streamlined this as best possible. For a like replacement, the customer generally ends up paying $4k to $6k, depending on the actual issue. It's not because we've got some secret that makes the process cheaper, either. The labor is still the same. The difference is that we're not screwing the customer out of core value since we have a network of customers who repurpose the recoverable parts of these batteries for other projects (mainly off-grid solar projects). Whatever value we're able to recover from the customer's core battery we pass on to the customer. Simple as that. The result is that the customer gets a fully working replacement battery at the lowest cost possible.

There are some repairable failures, all involving electronics within the battery pack. But there are no repairable failures involving the battery modules themselves. If a cell or cell group has failed or has issues, this isn't repairable. Despite claims by Youtubers and other companies, you simply can't butcher a module and remove a cell, or replace a module with another from another car, and then expect it to work fine indefinitely. Instead, that battery will be struggling from the moment it's reactivated... eventually and inevitably failing again. Sure, it may work for a while. Days, maybe even a year if you're lucky. But it will fail. These "repairs" are garbage and should never be done.

Trust me, if it could be done cheaper, we'd be doing it cheaper. We do several per week at this point, and it's definitely not a high margin prospect. In fact, it ties up a lot of capital doing full replacements at an invoice price way lower than the cost of a replacement. If we could do this as a service that didn't involve $30,000 to $60,000 in components floating around for each vehicle (replacement pack and core pack)... we'd jump on that in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, it's not possible.

Anyway, there's your history lesson and reasoning on why pack replacements will very likely never be any cheaper than they are now. In fact, with the Model 3,Y and Plaid, they're likely always going to be worse since these packs have limited to no secondhand value once failed, unlike the pre-Plaid S/X packs.
 
The Model S was never designed to be a cheap or easy repair, especially the battery pack. In fact, let's look at some history.

When Tesla designed the S battery pack, it was designed to be 100% non-serviceable. If any component within had an issue, it would need to be replaced entirely.

How do we know this?

Early on, Tesla used contactors within the packs from Tyco that were undersized for the job and failing after relatively short periods, depending on how the car was driven. (Tesla used their telemetry data to determine who drove their vehicles within the limits of these underspec'd components and only replaced them on cars where they figured they would fail instead of, oh I don't know, doing a recall to replace a critical component that doesn't function as designed... story for another time.) At first they were doing full pack swaps, then crating and shipping the original batteries to Fremont in order for the crews there to destructively open the battery packs, replace the contactors with updates components, and then fix and resealing everything.

There was no procedure for this. The batteries were never designed to be opened. The only semi-accessible component was the high-voltage fuse... which still required complete removal of the battery pack to access along with resealing that area.

Eventually, they came up with a rather ridiculous procedure that would take two techs about half a day (plus sealant set time) to perform at a service center in order to replace the failing Tyco contactors. At some point a random service tech in the field came up with a modification to that procedure, including a tool he designed and welded up himself, that helped speed up that whole process down to a couple of hours (plus sealant set time).

They performed this procedure on thousands of Model S over the years... even so, there are still quite a few out there that had never had the "proactive power switch replacement service" performed. I know because we still occasionally get cars with batteries that have these old Tyco contactors in them (usually barely functional and visibly burned from years of overuse).

Let's take the position of the 12V battery on the early S as another example. Tesla never intended for the 12V battery on the S to ever need replacing. Why would it need to be? We've got a giant battery under the car that can handle everything. This 12V should never get used. Let's put it in the least accessible place in the car!

This may have worked out for them, but early on customers complained of excessive vampire drain. The 12V was going to last forever, because the car rarely ever "slept." Instead, it'd sit there most of the time with the contactors closed, DC-DC converter active, its cooling pump running slowly, and other wasteful things pulling anywhere from 30-80 watts continuously. So, 3 to 7 miles of vampire drain on a good day, not even counting any of the early MCU sleep issues that could easily triple this.

Eventually Tesla tweaked the sleep setups of the MCU and BMS to disengage more things. This lead to a bit more wear on the undersized 12V battery... leading to early failures. This was before "12V battery needs to be replaced" warnings. Your warning would be that your car wouldn't unlock in the morning, wouldn't open, and otherwise would be non-responsive.

There wasn't a service procedure for replacing the 12V battery yet.

When they had to come up with one, the positioning is so ridiculous that it involves removing the windshield wipers, several pieces of underhood trim, the air filter and its box, an entire fuse block (disconnecting and labeling every one of the dozen+ wires first), and then after all of that, making a makeshift handle out of duct tape (yes, this is in the original official procedure) in order to help pull the 12V out of position, then a series of maneuvers to squeeze it through a spot never intended to be used for this purpose....... then do it all in reverse to install the new one. Time? At least an hour.

Battery swaps? LOL. That was doomed from day one. Yes, they clearly intended for these to be machine swappable. The connector designs and such are actually quite good with this in mind. In practice, however, not so great. The alignment of these connectors is never perfect. They're on springs, and any dirt/grit that gets into the wrong place will prevent them from fully engaging. A misalignment by just a couple of mm can actually cause a connector to break upon reinstall. Any automated setup would need to remove the battery, clean and align the connectors, install the new pack, and double check the seating of the connector. That last part is probably what killed swap stations. Automating that is probably impossible. Heck, it's difficult for humans even with the rear aero shield removed, let alone with nothing but the battery out. Good idea, but just not going to happen. Plus the logistics of it are too much of a nightmare. We've gotten enough cars in over the years with "Service Loaner" batteries to know that Tesla has no way of recovering a battery once its installed in a car.

Could go on and on, but let's fast forward a bit.

Today, the 12V batteries are way more accessible. Still not as easy as some ICE cars, but not objectively the worst possible replacement procedure ever conceived anymore.

No battery pack made after 2014 could ever hope to be automatically swapped at all, as the design changed sufficiently to kill automation. Then in 2016 the car-side connectors were completely changed and have zero play for alignment, requiring monitoring from the side upon install, which isn't possible with all panels in place. Then we have the Model 3, Y, and now the Plaid series... all of which have batteries that can't be removed at all without performing procedures on the inside of the car. Quick and easy battery swaps are dead dead dead dead.

The battery packs were updated to be slightly more serviceable in 2015. The rear are that houses the BMS, contactors, and other electronics was now accessible without destructive disassembly. The removal of the battery is still required, thought. The HV fuse panel was also flipped to the underside of the battery pack... meaning the fuse can now be replaced without removing the battery pack, if needed.

All of this said, there's one major point with regard to the battery packs: The batteries themselves were never intended to be replaced or repaired, and still are not. The only reason that the Model S was designed with manageable sized modules was ease of manufacturing, and less loss if they were to screw one up at build time (which seems to have happened a lot). If they had started with a Model 3-like monolithic module design, Tesla likely would have went bankrupt from failed modules since the process had not been perfected.

The module design within the battery does NOT mean these are individually replaceable. This was never intended, and does not work. This is not the design, and there are no exceptions. From a technical perspective, it's not possible either. (I've written about this many times, and noted more below.)

Tesla has always, from day 1, intended for the entire battery pack to be replaced in the event of any issue. And they stick to this, leading to very high costs to replace. Tesla's prices are actually very high because they give almost no value for the core battery pack, either. So with Tesla, after labor and parts, in a best case scenario you're looking at just under $14k or so for a replacement service.

At 057, we've streamlined this as best possible. For a like replacement, the customer generally ends up paying $4k to $6k, depending on the actual issue. It's not because we've got some secret that makes the process cheaper, either. The labor is still the same. The difference is that we're not screwing the customer out of core value since we have a network of customers who repurpose the recoverable parts of these batteries for other projects (mainly off-grid solar projects). Whatever value we're able to recover from the customer's core battery we pass on to the customer. Simple as that. The result is that the customer gets a fully working replacement battery at the lowest cost possible.

There are some repairable failures, all involving electronics within the battery pack. But there are no repairable failures involving the battery modules themselves. If a cell or cell group has failed or has issues, this isn't repairable. Despite claims by Youtubers and other companies, you simply can't butcher a module and remove a cell, or replace a module with another from another car, and then expect it to work fine indefinitely. Instead, that battery will be struggling from the moment it's reactivated... eventually and inevitably failing again. Sure, it may work for a while. Days, maybe even a year if you're lucky. But it will fail. These "repairs" are garbage and should never be done.

Trust me, if it could be done cheaper, we'd be doing it cheaper. We do several per week at this point, and it's definitely not a high margin prospect. In fact, it ties up a lot of capital doing full replacements at an invoice price way lower than the cost of a replacement. If we could do this as a service that didn't involve $30,000 to $60,000 in components floating around for each vehicle (replacement pack and core pack)... we'd jump on that in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, it's not possible.

Anyway, there's your history lesson and reasoning on why pack replacements will very likely never be any cheaper than they are now. In fact, with the Model 3,Y and Plaid, they're likely always going to be worse since these packs have limited to no secondhand value once failed, unlike the pre-Plaid S/X packs.
Interesting. Thanks.

Do you foresee a high failure rate of batteries for vehicles say 2016 and newer?

Would be great if the batteries did end up lasting for the entire life of the car.