SherSlick
Member
Honestly I am fairly upset about the HP claim. Not that I cannot appreciate it feeing fast, but don't over promise and under deliver.
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Maybe it's your moderate weather or terrain or something, but for me 350 Wh/mi is what I get with normal driving here in the summer. When I'm more aggressive, it easily gets in the 400s, and in the winter, fuhgeddaboudit! I'm up in the 500s regularly.
MarcG
Active Member
I have the first P85D delivered on this forum (second overall) and have ZERO regrets. If I had the choice to do it all over again, I would NOT have waited to order it, nor decided to order something else (Tesla or otherwise).
I'd also like to address the points Jason brought up in his OP:
- 691 HP: why does this matter? The P85D was advertised as doing 0-60 mph in 3.2 seconds, and it not only delivered that but can now do it in 3.1! You can even get 2.8 if you pay for the upgrade, which is totally reasonable in my opinion (not that I would necessarily do it, to each his own).
- Autopilot: the other thread Jason created says it all and I've made my points clear there. In short: it's software, it's complicated, it deals with life-and-death situations, so I'm being patient!
- Efficiency/range: the P85D was never advertised to be more efficient than non-dual motor models. The 85D was, and is. The first numbers that came out for the P85D were 285 miles AT 65 MPH, which is vastly different than EPA numbers. P85D delivers 285 miles at 65 mph, just like the non-D 85kWh versions. EPA is lower (253 vs. 265) due to lower efficiency at low speed - BUT YOU GET INSANE MODE! And efficiency really is only more important at higher speeds anyway, for road trips and such. When I saw 285 miles at 65 mph for the P85D and 295 miles at 65 mph for the 85D, I knew it wouldn't matter much - INSANE acceleration was more important to me. If you really wanted more range, you should've ordered the 85D and waited another couple of months.
- Next-gen seat retrofit delay: it was unfortunate that we didn't get our next-gen seats at delivery, but we had the choice of postponing delivery altogether or get the car earlier with standard seats. I find that very generous of Tesla, given the delay was due to an upstream issue. Besides, we now have less wear and tear on our next-gen seats than we would if we had received them from day 1. Tesla didn't charge us for the wear and tear on the standard seats they took out, nor for the retrofit work, so I'm a happy camper.
- Etc: everything else has been a joy for me. I had a drive unit failure, but it was taken care of super gracefully, quickly, and I had a loaner P85D in the meantime that I put miles on at no cost.
Life's good, the car's awesome, I really can't complain!! I hope others can see it that way too :biggrin:
Early December delivery (my salesperson said I was #3). Got my performance seats in spring, so had to wait less than many others.
In summation, no regrets, unless I find I need new sensors for autonomous driving that can't be retrofitted. I want as much autonomous driving as I can have, it will change how I use the car.
That being said, the car is an absolute joy to drive each and every day, and I will be getting ludicrous mode because 0-80 speed is the only speed I can safely enjoy. But darn it, I really really enjoy the speed between those brackets
I think many who came from ICE cars had nothing to compare to, and as such may be more forgiving from those who upgraded from the P85+ or earlier models.
In summation, no regrets, unless I find I need new sensors for autonomous driving that can't be retrofitted. I want as much autonomous driving as I can have, it will change how I use the car.
That being said, the car is an absolute joy to drive each and every day, and I will be getting ludicrous mode because 0-80 speed is the only speed I can safely enjoy. But darn it, I really really enjoy the speed between those brackets
I think many who came from ICE cars had nothing to compare to, and as such may be more forgiving from those who upgraded from the P85+ or earlier models.
MarcG
Active Member
That's a really good point. I think the expectation for those who upgraded from other Model S versions to the P85D was likely much higher than those of us who migrated from other EVs or ICE cars.
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The NextGen seat comment isn't universally true. I wasn't given the option of postponing delivery. I took delivery at the end of December and when I went to pick up the car I was told that the seats in the car were NextGen. I questioned it, but was assured that they were the right seats. A day or so later I found out that they weren't the NextGen seats and I contacted Tesla immediately to let them know. There was no offer to take the car back nor was there a refund for the extra cost attributable to the seats pending their ultimate delivery. Perhaps this is a minor point to some, but it's part of the cause for the very unpleasant taste in my mouth over how we were treated when buying our second Tesla.
It matters because a car with 691 HP should perform much better at speed. Just yesterday I was at a 30 MPH roll along side my wife, me her both punched it, and she *beat* me. Not just a moved a little away, she literally took the P85D by a car length before the P85D was able to just maintain speed with her P85 and slowly creep up once we hit ~80-ish. I was even at a higher SoC (~85%) than her since she had just driven over 120 miles (~50%). Not going to lie, that pissed me off. The P85D should in no way be able to be bested by a P85.
Sure, then they shouldn't have demonstrated it as if they had it done and nearly ready to go 10 months ago, used present tense terminology in all marketing material, etc.
Not sure where people get this from. As written up thread, Elon himself, while standing in front of a P85D chassis, said "everything about the car improves with dual motor" and that they've been able to "increase efficiency" by adding the second motor. Then the website shows the P85D next to other models showing 285 miles. Then conversations with Tesla staff locally and at HQ confirmed that it would have more range. Come on now.
Next gen seats didn't bother me much, but I listed it for completeness. I actually took delivery with front next gens, so, nothing for me to complain about on this front.
MarcG
Active Member
No man should ever be beat by his wife in a car race. LOL. This is strange though, did you have RANGE MODE set to ON in the P85D? If so, the rear motor could've been torque-sleeping at the time you punched it...
They demonstrated it in a very controlled environment. I think anyone who wasn't drunk should've seen this as a pre-alpha demo, and while I agree it's taken a long time (10 months is a stretch of "several" by any definition) I still stand by my "please be patient" approach. I do agree though that the marketing material is ambiguous and should be clarified.
I think the below image, which I captured from Tesla's website on 12/04/2014, is what you're referring to. At the time, 85 and 85D were not available side-by-side (choosing dual-motor would override 85 with 85D), but you would see 265 miles EPA and 285 miles at 65 mph (what they used to call "ideal") for the 85. I also summarized it in a post back on the same date these numbers were released, 12/04/2014:
MarcG said:
Anyway, the point is, if you compared apples-to-apples, you would clearly see that highway range is comparable between 85 and P85D, while 85D is slightly more efficient.
Nope, I always drive in range-off insane-on when I'm not on a long trip. This was a clear cut loss for the P85D. It's pretty evident in my drag race videos that the P85 keeps pretty good pace with the P85D once they both hit ~30-40 MPH too, which is less noticeable since the P85 takes a little longer to get there, but it is obvious.
Even if it is stated at 65 MPH, the estimator on Tesla's website at the time showed the P85 well below 285 miles of range at 65 MPH at the time and I should have taken screen shots. They changed their tune with the blog post that came out after I started to put them on public blast about the range issues with my side by side efficiency tests. They literally posted the blog post hours before I posted the results of my side by side testing. Tell me that wasn't convenient timing?
The P85 estimates disappeared now that the blog post showed both the 85 and P85D at the same range for 65 MPH, but diverged from there (much like the existing estimator which has pretty confusing values).
It was obvious the 85D would be more efficient than the P85D, but it was explicitly stated and implied that the dual motor vehicles would have better range. This was emphasized by the higher range numbers showing on the web page and confirmed by multiple conversations with Tesla only to be hushed later once the EPA numbers came out.
MarcG
Active Member
Hmm I'm sorry Jason, I think it's clear that you were basing your P85D purchase decision on its performance and range relative to the P85 you already had, and the outcome was obviously disappointing for you.
As Aargau rightly mentioned above, and I quoted him stating I thought it was a really good point, the expectation of previous Model S owners who upgraded to the P85D was clearly higher than that prospective P85D buyers that were brand new to the Tesla family. In other words, I really can't relate to (though I can totally understand) your frustrations.
Best of luck with your next move, whatever it may end up being. I would be sad to see you go though...
As Aargau rightly mentioned above, and I quoted him stating I thought it was a really good point, the expectation of previous Model S owners who upgraded to the P85D was clearly higher than that prospective P85D buyers that were brand new to the Tesla family. In other words, I really can't relate to (though I can totally understand) your frustrations.
Best of luck with your next move, whatever it may end up being. I would be sad to see you go though...
I can understand some of these frustrations not bothering a new owner as much, for sure, and I'm glad you're happy with the car.
But yeah, definitely *everything* was compared to my existing P85. I discussed details in length with people at Tesla as well, especially with regard to the range increase, which was a definite selling point, as well as autopilot and horsepower.
That's way way too high for summer driving. Have you checked your alignment? Do you have the 19" or 21" wheels. It makes a big difference and the EPA test was only done for the 19" standard wheels.
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I know this has been said like a million times but you didn't get the memo. It matters to those that care about freeway passing speeds. The P85D doesn't pass as fast a a car that actually has 1 hp for every 7 lbs rather than 1 hp for every 9 lbs like the P85D actually has.
But I agree about the 0-60 and don't understand why folks are complaining about that at all.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I can understand some of these frustrations not bothering a new owner as much, for sure, and I'm glad you're happy with the car.
I'm a new owner (in that I never owned a Model S before--December 2014 delivery) who is probably not quite as bothered by these things as wk057, but is also not quite as satisfied as fellow new owner MarcG. I expect the two reasons I'm not bothered quite as much as wk057 is are, the already mentioned fact that I was not a previous Model S owner, and also the fact that I never owned a performance car like the P85D before, so really had no idea what to expect. I'm one of the people that was attracted by the tech more than by the car, as I've never been a car person. And were it not for what I've been reading here, I'd have no idea that I should be upset about the missing HP, the efficiency, etc.
On the other hand, I have a great deal of experience in customer service, I can recognize excellent and less than excellent customer service when I'm getting it, and I strongly believe one should get what they pay for. Would I know that I hadn't received what I paid for without TMC? Absolutely not. But the fact of the matter is that I do, and it most definitely does bother me.
There are people who, if walking out of a store, realizing they've been short-changed a dollar, would just keep walking, figuring it's only a dollar, and not worth taking the time to go back for. That's not me. I'd turn around and go back. And it's only a little bit about the money. It's a lot about the principle. I can't stand feeling I've been ripped off--even a little bit, and even if it was an honest mistake. I want things made right.
That's where I'm coming from on a lot of this stuff.
Are freeway passing speeds really the gripe? I feel like my 85D has more than enough umph, the P85 loaner I drove even more. I feel like anything more puts you in triple-digit-lose-your-license territory but I guess to each his own.
Yes, that's the gripe.
My Prius has enough passing speed for what it is but if I thought the 85D was enough passing power for me I would have bought that and not the P85D.
Nope - no regrets. My experience with my P85D is exactly the same as with my original early model 2013 Model S - the car just keeps getting better with upgrades. When I bought the car, 0-60 was 3.2. Now it is 3.1, and soon to be 2.8. I never even dreamed that would be possible. Range was never what was promised, but neither was the original Model-S. However, it did get better with torque sleep. The car did not have a bunch of autopilot features when I bought it, now it does. Yes, it doesn't drive itself, and this is probably the biggest disappointment - it is almost a year since I bought the car and that feature is "still coming". When it does, it will probably come along with an announcement of a new rev of the model-s that has a better sensor pack that I can't upgrade to. But such is the life of an early adopter. I still have a faster car than almost anyone else on the freeway, and it fits my personality.
So, in the end, after all this - no regrets. I'm glad I upgraded.
Oh - I forgot to mention - this new car is WAY better manufactured than the earlier model-s. So many fewer defects that the only time I have gone back for service has been for upgrades.
I'm actually willing to bet that the @ passing speed differences between the 85D/P85/P85D are within 5% of each other's actual speed increase per second above say maybe ~50-60 MPH.
If we had a P85D, an 85D, and a P85 three wide side by side on an interstate cruising at 70 MPH, and we all punched it to 100 I bet we'd all be within 1 car length of each other with the P85D barely being ahead.
I had this problem and there's a simple fix -- apply a small piece of moleskin to the side of the front console and it will stop the squeaking.
-- David
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