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2014 Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by AC1K, Apr 3, 2013.

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  1. AC1K

    AC1K Member

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    #1 AC1K, Apr 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2013
    (Panamera Hybrid) What a joke! this car cant compete at all...

    http://jalopnik.com/the-plug-in-hybrid-porsche-panamera-is-the-tesla-model-468462762


    • the Tesla is faster by over a second (thats a huge amount of time if we are talking 0-60)
    • the Porsche is still burning gas, so not only do you have to deal with charging, you still have to deal with gas stations, filing up, paying Porsche tax for oil changes/filter changes/etc
    • it gets 20 miles of range on its battery, the average US Driving statistic is a 60 mile commute per day
    • its over $10K USD More

    the only thing this car can do better is top speed, but how many times in the last 2 months have you gone 250kph?
    i see this car being a Fisker Karma competitor, lets see who fails faster.
     
  2. Iz

    Iz EVs are here to stay

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    It still sips petro and has "stuff" under the hood - that is a BIG difference.
     
  3. ElSupreme

    ElSupreme Model S 03182

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    Actually they aren't quite saying that the Porshe can compete, just that it hits the same ballpark as the Tesla. And that it is first to even do that.

    I don't know why they pulled out the P85, because my lowly regular 85kWh will equal the Porsche to 60mph.

    This line I did like though:
    Sure I know it isn't really accurate for all current Tesla drivers, but the people who are looking at a Panamera Plug-in Hybrid it probably is.
     
  4. AnOutsider

    AnOutsider S532 # XS27

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    For "competition", wouldn't this put it next to the Karma? Not that the Karma is competing with anyone at this point, but ya...
     
  5. Holden

    Holden Member

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    Not to mention, of course, that the Panamera is butt-ugly.
     
  6. strider

    strider Active Member

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    I thought it was a good article. These are the buyers Tesla is going to have to attract in order to grow. Yes, they will get all of the "EV-only" buyers but there aren't very many of those. There are WAY more, "I want a car that I can afford and meets my needs" and those people care less about EV vs PHEV vs pure ICE. It's all about the sum of the whole package - will that be compelling for people to choose a Tesla over other cars? That's the question that anyone building a product needs to answer.
     
  7. Rodolfo Paiz

    Rodolfo Paiz P85 "Plug and Play"

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    I agree with most of your post, but do you have a source for that 60-mile commute datum? The only hard number of which I am aware is a study quoted by both GM and the Federal Government that showed 93% of daily drive totals were under 40 miles, if I remember the data correctly.
     
  8. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was 20 miles a day.
     
  9. GSP

    GSP Member

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    Note that AC1K claimed the AVERAGE of 60 mi/day. The mean, or average, is influenced a great deal by a few very high data points.

    That is why the median house price is always quoted in the economic news, not the mean (average) home price.

    GSP
     
  10. Arnold Panz

    Arnold Panz Model Sig 304, VIN 542

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    Two issues -- first, the price comparison is off. The Model S doesn't "start" at $100k, that's a completely fully loaded one. The Panamera hybrid starts at $100k and goes up from there. Add in the total cost of ownership, since only those with the shortest commutes won't have to use gas, plus you still have oil changes, filters, transmission issues and everything else that goes along with ICEs, and the Panamera is a lot more expensive over several years.

    Second, the Panamera seats four people and has little to no trunk space! I realize that a lot of people buying the Model S don't necessarily need either or both of these, but for many potential buyers these are close to dealbreakers. I used to laugh at the folks at Tesla when they'd gently try to sell me on a Roadster while I waited for a Model S. I've got three kids and a wife -- how am I going to justify a two-seater with no trunk space?! The Panamera is not much better, at all, than the Roadster was. Two extra seats (that are tight) and marginally more trunk space.

    And I have a 17" computer touch screen :)
     
  11. Rodolfo Paiz

    Rodolfo Paiz P85 "Plug and Play"

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    The one-way commuting distance quoted in that study was 20 miles, yes. The full round-trip commute plus errands was < 40 miles for 93% of the population. Again, IIRC.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Please note that the 40-mile figure I quoted was not the median but the 93rd percentile. Both the mean and median would have been substantially below that number. There would have to be some awfully high data points in the remaining 7% to move the mean so far up, don't you think?
     
  12. dennis

    dennis P85D

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    What if the buyer cares about how well their $100K sedan handles? Here are the skidpad numbers from this road test comparison of the Model S to the Panamera GTS:

    Model S - .86G
    Panamera - .96G

    That is a significant difference in what I consider to be the weakest part of driving the Model S, which is its handling at speed. The Model S drives much more like a Lexus than a Porsche or BMW.
     
  13. Rodolfo Paiz

    Rodolfo Paiz P85 "Plug and Play"

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    Wow... 0.96G is a very nice result indeed for a four-door sedan. Heck, 0.86G is a very nice result... the 0.96 is impressive.
     
  14. scottf200

    scottf200 Active Member

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    #14 scottf200, Apr 3, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2013
    Consider 20 miles 1 way to work or 40 miles RT. (I've put 21K EV miles on my Volt driving ~25 RT miles to work over 2 years)

    Thread link: 78% of drivers drive 40 miles or less per day
     
  15. Mr X

    Mr X Future Owner

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    20 miles is completely worthless


    you are so limited smh
     
  16. ipdamages

    ipdamages Roadster Sports 835 & 972

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    Obviously the posters on this board and on this thread are almost all Tesla fanatics and fanboys. Our group includes early adopters and people who spend a lot of time posting and reading about these cars. We do not represent the general public.

    That said, many find the Panamera to be more attractive than the Model S. My wife certainly does, which is why she bought one and does not want a Model S. Many, me included, find the Model S to look a lot like cars from Jaguar, Mazda, Chrysler, and Hyundai. The Panamera looks like, well, a Porsche, and I'm not aware of anyone mixing up a Panamera with a Hyundai. Of course, both cars are huge to the point that they don't fit in parking spaces and create dangers due to their largesse, as we are seeing with the high incidence of accidents and oopsies. My point: butt-ugly is certainly in the eye of the beholder, but if one were to do a survey, one might find that the majority of people (and potential customers) prefer the looks of the Panamera to the Model S.

    As regards the notion that the Panamera Hybrid can't compete, I'd be careful before writing it off. True - it has an ICE. But 95% of the world buys ICEs - not BEVs. So for people on this board, the Model S is frequently the superior option. But not for the rest of the world. I feel little need or desire to get into the reasons that PHEVs appeal to the world more than BEVs, but that is where the world is now, with technology and resources as they are today. For example, if I want to drive to Las Vegas from Los Angeles to see my mom, I don't want to stop at the Barstow supercharging station and hope that it isn't being used. I want to be able to drive there, uninterrupted. And when I get to my mom's place, I don't want to have to find a charging station in Las Vegas and get my mom to pick me up and take me to her house and wait for my car to recharge, and then drive me back to my car. And I'm an early adopter who is more willing than many to accept inconveniences!

    As Tesla goes from early adopters and other low-hanging fruit to trying to lure in others that aren't such an easy sell, cars like the Panamera Hybrid become a real competitive option, and dismissing them because they have an ICE is just being an ostrich.
     
  17. qwk

    qwk Model S P2681

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    ^^^Your statement while some of it may be true, doesn't reflect real world reality. Tesla definately doesn't need the sales from 95% of the rest of the world that buys ICE cars to succeed. Typewriters ruled the world for quite a while until being replaced with computers. Did it happen overnight? Definately not. Who uses a typewriter now? You have to start somewhere.
     
  18. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney Active Member

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    #18 ItsNotAboutTheMoney, Apr 4, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
    To those thinking having a 20 mile AER PHEV is nothing, it's not. You should still get:

    - Pure EV on short trips
    - Much more efficient and "easy" gradual warm-up of the engine (unless you really hammer it)
    - Much improved low-speed performance (i.e. not sucking in city traffic)
    - Smooth response (if they do it right): instant torque + non-instant torque >> non-instant torque
    - Unless you're commuting a looooong way, significant reduction in gasoline consumption (PHEV = limited BEV + hybrid). Obviously a Panamera driver doesn't care about gasoline consumption, but they might enjoy fewer fill-ups.
    - Ubiquitous refueling infrastructure

    Expanding the Supercharger network and making it dense enough to keep charging times short is key to defending against competition like this, but the competition should be welcomed, because more sales will bring more infrastructure and more sales.
     
  19. efxjim

    efxjim Member

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    It would be nice to know the skid pad number for the Performance plus modification.
     
  20. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #20 stopcrazypp, Apr 4, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
    As I pointed out before, Edmunds happens to have the lowest skidpad number for the Model S. They got it from a 200ft diameter skidpad.
    http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/5890-Karma-vs-Model-S/page46?p=252662&viewfull=1#post252662

    C&D got 0.91 on a 300ft diameter skidpad.
    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-tesla-model-s-test-review

    Motor Trend got 0.89 (0.87 for standard 85kWh version)
    http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/1301_2013_motor_trend_car_of_the_year_tesla_model_s/viewall.html

    Although the Panamera lineup does have the highest skidpad numbers in its class (I think it beat even the CTS-V), I haven't been able to find a number for the Panamera Hybrid (yahoo says 0.89g for 2013, 0.85g for 2012, but no idea where they get the numbers).
     

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