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2014 Porsche Panamera S E-Hybrid
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ipdamages
Roadster Sport 835
What part my of statement doesn't reflect reality? If you are saying that Tesla can succeed as a niche high end BEV company, that is certainly debatable, and definitely not the company's strategy - they are absolutely trying to convert ICE/hybrid buyers to become BEV buyers. They converted me. I'd venture to guess that they converted just about every person who owns a Tesla (the exception being the rare soul for whom a Tesla is their first car).
Are they trying to convert Panamera customers? Of course they are! Those are exactly their target market, which is why Edmunds and others have done side-by-side comparisons of the cars. Tesla is competing for the same customers that Porsche is trying to keep with its Panamera Hybrid!
As to your point on technological evolution and shift, if you're saying that for significant change you have to start somewhere, I agree, but that counters your previous point that Tesla doesn't need the 95%. Still, I think we can agree that strong new technology beats out old technology when it succeeds. But it does particularly well when the folks trying to bring their new product/technology to market carefully evaluate the landscape and execute on a thought-out plan. That doesn't typically include out-of-hand dismissal of market leaders like Porsche. Didn't Elon have a Porsche a few years back? The Panamera is the same size as the Model S, costs about the same, and has spacious seating in a Sports Sedan. Model S is most certainly a competitor to the ICE version of the Panamera, and moreso to the hybrid version.
So I suggest that my post/statement does reflect reality. It is our current reality. And I look forward to the day when reality is easier for Tesla, with fewer naysayers, better battery technology, and a better infrastructure to support the cars. I earnestly believe those days are not far off, and competition will become easier. But pretending that Tesla does not need to convert ICE buyers and people who are considering the Panamera hybrid is absurd.
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dennis
Model S Plaid
If you read carefully, that was a pre-release version of the Performance Plus option with Michelin PS2's:
At 0.91 g, grip is plentiful thanks to our test car’s in-development suspension tuning and monster 21-inch Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 tires.
Car and Driver Test
Good article, we heard from an owner of a Porsche dealership down here in South Florida that the Panamera is losing significant marketshare to the Model S. Those looking for a hatchback, spacious, big, wide, sporty, fast car in this price-range have few choices, and, since Tesla opened locations in both Ft. Lauderdale (Dania Beach) and Miami (Lincoln Road) - Porsche has been really feeling the sting. Not a surprise, they're trying to play catch-up with a sub-par hybrid (20 electric miles only?) just to cater to those looking to be more green. This looks like a rush-to-market to stem the bleeding. I don't think Porsche has spent the proper time to develop a far more competitive product to go toe-to-toe with the Model S.
I agree with ipdamages on several points. I don't think the Panamera is butt-ugly personally... I think Porsche did a good job in making it still look like a Porsche which is important to their brand loyalists. And it's definitely competition for the Model S, especially the Panamera Hybrid. Those people operating their cars in cities will likely see major reductions in their fuel costs (a friend of mine spends $100 on gas a week), and they care. And some people really want a Porsche, not just a sedan or even a green sedan. Those people are going to be hard to convert to Tesla, and they are most certainly part of Tesla's target market. The Panamera Hybrid seems like a smart move on Porsche's part IMHO.
Where I disagree is that the majority of people, especially non-Porsche drivers, seem to dislike the Panamera looks from what I hear. And nobody, not a single soul, has disliked the Model S looks within earshot of me, or compared the Model S to lower-end brands either. The car is sometimes compared to a Jaguar, but more often compared to a Maserati Quattroporte or an Aston Martin. This car is a rock star... turns heads everywhere.
Where I disagree is that the majority of people, especially non-Porsche drivers, seem to dislike the Panamera looks from what I hear. And nobody, not a single soul, has disliked the Model S looks within earshot of me, or compared the Model S to lower-end brands either. The car is sometimes compared to a Jaguar, but more often compared to a Maserati Quattroporte or an Aston Martin. This car is a rock star... turns heads everywhere.
ipdamages
Roadster Sport 835
As one might imagine, I'm not surprised that the Panamera is losing market share, and I'm glad to hear it. 20,000 cars a year is a lot, and those sales have to come from somewhere.
Last year in the US Porsche sold 15,545 Cayennes, 3,356 Boxsters + Caymans, 8,528 911s, and 7,614 Panameras (35,043 total new cars and 9,512 pre-owned cars).
Porsche Reports Best-Ever Sales in 2012; 21 percent increase over 2011 -- ATLANTA, Jan. 3, 2013 /PRNewswire/ --
The US was 25% of their global sales of 141,075, with China second at 31,205 (22%).
Porsche set new global sales record in 2012
I'm among those who don't really think the Panamera is attractive. From some angles I like it (front and quarter view), but I like a tighter ass, so any view from back there leaves me limp. But like Ian says, that's why they have 31 flavors, and obviously many others like it enough to buy one - like my wife, for example. I also like it more when it has sportier and aggressive options, like wheels. Same with the Model S. I'm not really a fan of the car's looks as I think it looks too much like other cars on the market, and I don't like the round and bulbous front nose cone/angle, but from other angles and when it has different wheels, I think it looks good. I really like the 22"ers that FlyYellow got from Elie at Al & Ed's. Waaaaay better than the turbines if you ask me.
baby got new shoes...
But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like the Maserati Gran Turismo and the Fisker Atlantic and Aston Martin One-77. I think the Maserati Quattroporte is boring.
I also like the Model S better in smaller form, as seen in Gen 3 mock-ups, like the coupes that vfx and others have created with graphic illustrations, and the clay one that TEG found (that man has an incredible ability to find interesting sheit!)
That clay model looks really yummy to me! (Of course, that may be because it doesn't have the nose cone staring at you).
As regards Soflason's idea that Porsche has rushed the Panamera PHEV to market, I suppose that in some ways it is rushed, but it really is not just a band aid approach. First, there is the fact that the Panamera S Hybrid has been available as a hybrid since late 2011 (but not plug-in), with a $5K price premium compared to the ICE Panamera S. And the Cayenne Hybrid was available in 2010, when they also built the 911 GT3 R Hybrid.
Porsche AG - Press - About Porsche - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG
As the Left Lane News article points out, later this year they will release the beastly 918 supercar, and the Macan SUV (both PHEVs). It is all part of the Porsche Intelligent Performance program, which was first announced in early 2010 when we first saw the 918.
Porsche Intelligent Performance - The next spark - YouTube
So I don't agree that Porsche has rushed a PHEV Panamera to market. But they surely see the Tesla and the Model S as competitors, and have clearly chosen to go the PHEV route rather than offering a BEV. Tesla fans generally think that PHEVs are categorically inferior to BEVs, but there are a lot of car companies that seem to disagree. Porsche appears to be firmly in the hybrid sub-market, and in order to preserve the best of what Porsche has historically offered, they have only been able to put a small battery pack in their PHEVs, which has meant limited electric range (16 miles for the 918, and 20 for the Panamera PHEV). But rush to market? It sure doesn't seem like that to me. They clearly are spending a lot of time, energy, and money on their PIP program.
Not insignificant is that Tesla has a strong first-mover advantage in BEVs, with patents, trade secrets, and know-how, which act as significant barriers to entry preventing others from now doing their version of the Model S. But we will see. Detroit Electric's version of the Roadster shows how they are doing a me-too of one of Tesla's cars, and several others are trying to develop their version of the Gen 3 (e.g, BMW - albeit IMO fatally deficient in range). As many have said, I'm sure that in China there are people right now dismantling a Model S to find a way to create their own version.
I like Tesla's chances, and while I'm not currently planning to buy (or do the creative financing instrument on) a Model S, I love my Roadster, I look forward to Gen 3, and I can see myself buying the Roadster 3.0, which I hope looks like a proper supercar (a la 918, McLaren P1, etc.). Exciting times ahead!
Last year in the US Porsche sold 15,545 Cayennes, 3,356 Boxsters + Caymans, 8,528 911s, and 7,614 Panameras (35,043 total new cars and 9,512 pre-owned cars).
Porsche Reports Best-Ever Sales in 2012; 21 percent increase over 2011 -- ATLANTA, Jan. 3, 2013 /PRNewswire/ --
The US was 25% of their global sales of 141,075, with China second at 31,205 (22%).
Porsche set new global sales record in 2012
I'm among those who don't really think the Panamera is attractive. From some angles I like it (front and quarter view), but I like a tighter ass, so any view from back there leaves me limp. But like Ian says, that's why they have 31 flavors, and obviously many others like it enough to buy one - like my wife, for example. I also like it more when it has sportier and aggressive options, like wheels. Same with the Model S. I'm not really a fan of the car's looks as I think it looks too much like other cars on the market, and I don't like the round and bulbous front nose cone/angle, but from other angles and when it has different wheels, I think it looks good. I really like the 22"ers that FlyYellow got from Elie at Al & Ed's. Waaaaay better than the turbines if you ask me.
baby got new shoes...
But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like the Maserati Gran Turismo and the Fisker Atlantic and Aston Martin One-77. I think the Maserati Quattroporte is boring.
I also like the Model S better in smaller form, as seen in Gen 3 mock-ups, like the coupes that vfx and others have created with graphic illustrations, and the clay one that TEG found (that man has an incredible ability to find interesting sheit!)
That clay model looks really yummy to me! (Of course, that may be because it doesn't have the nose cone staring at you).
As regards Soflason's idea that Porsche has rushed the Panamera PHEV to market, I suppose that in some ways it is rushed, but it really is not just a band aid approach. First, there is the fact that the Panamera S Hybrid has been available as a hybrid since late 2011 (but not plug-in), with a $5K price premium compared to the ICE Panamera S. And the Cayenne Hybrid was available in 2010, when they also built the 911 GT3 R Hybrid.
Porsche AG - Press - About Porsche - Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG
As the Left Lane News article points out, later this year they will release the beastly 918 supercar, and the Macan SUV (both PHEVs). It is all part of the Porsche Intelligent Performance program, which was first announced in early 2010 when we first saw the 918.
Porsche Intelligent Performance - The next spark - YouTube
So I don't agree that Porsche has rushed a PHEV Panamera to market. But they surely see the Tesla and the Model S as competitors, and have clearly chosen to go the PHEV route rather than offering a BEV. Tesla fans generally think that PHEVs are categorically inferior to BEVs, but there are a lot of car companies that seem to disagree. Porsche appears to be firmly in the hybrid sub-market, and in order to preserve the best of what Porsche has historically offered, they have only been able to put a small battery pack in their PHEVs, which has meant limited electric range (16 miles for the 918, and 20 for the Panamera PHEV). But rush to market? It sure doesn't seem like that to me. They clearly are spending a lot of time, energy, and money on their PIP program.
Not insignificant is that Tesla has a strong first-mover advantage in BEVs, with patents, trade secrets, and know-how, which act as significant barriers to entry preventing others from now doing their version of the Model S. But we will see. Detroit Electric's version of the Roadster shows how they are doing a me-too of one of Tesla's cars, and several others are trying to develop their version of the Gen 3 (e.g, BMW - albeit IMO fatally deficient in range). As many have said, I'm sure that in China there are people right now dismantling a Model S to find a way to create their own version.
I like Tesla's chances, and while I'm not currently planning to buy (or do the creative financing instrument on) a Model S, I love my Roadster, I look forward to Gen 3, and I can see myself buying the Roadster 3.0, which I hope looks like a proper supercar (a la 918, McLaren P1, etc.). Exciting times ahead!
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The 0.89 Motor Trend number is using Continental tires (which are worst than the Michelin ones) and no mention of any special suspension tuning.
It's still much higher than the 0.86 Edmunds got on Michelin tires (and it looks like the same red car too with C&D, Motor Trend's car was silver). So I think that is an outlier.
Unfortunately Road and Track didn't release any numbers from their testing.
CapitalistOppressor
Active Member
Keep in mind that to even come this close in the Panamera Hybrid, I'm pretty sure you still need to dump the clutch and flog the drivetrain. My understanding is that it operates like the plug in Prius, in that the ICE engages when you do any serious acceleration (unlike the Volt for instance).
You are doing real damage to the car when you do this, and it takes a fair bit of skill to pull off a 5.2 second launch. On the Model S you press the pedal and go. No burning clutch plates, no violent engagement of the gears as the car upshifts. Just smooth, linear power with neither muss nor fuss.
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There were over 60 million cars produced in 2012. 5% of that is six times of what Tesla's factory could even produce. I stand by my statement that Tesla doesn't need 95% of car buyers in order to be very successfull.
I also don't understand the "converting drivers" remark. This is not some kind of religion, no need to covert anyone. I bought the Model S because I like the car, not because it is an EV or ICE.
Carlos Ghosn made a speech (I could not find it but I sure I posted it here on TMC) where he talked about converting drivers from a previous brand to for the first time over to Nissan. Not sure if he used the exact word "convert" but the message was the Leaf changed customer brand loyalty on an unprecedented level. I found it fascinating and am sure Tesla is doing the same.
It is a matter of taste, sure. But personally I lost them at the Cayene already. A four door SUV, what a brand dilution. (I am no fan of SUV's or Cross overs anyway) The problem I have with the Panamera is that it looks like an oversized 911, one of my all time favorite cars.
For the next five to ten years I expect PHEV's to become more mainstream then BEVs. Reasons: people are afraid of range anxiety, BEV's still rather expensive, car industry not willing/trying to change their business(model) and probably some oil industry lobby as well
From that standpoint I understand Porsche. I drive a Lexus currently (until the Model S gets delivered) and I have been very loyal to them. If they would've come out with a PHEV I might not have considered Tesla. But Porsche could've given it a bit more attention to make the range at least 50 miles.
For the next five to ten years I expect PHEV's to become more mainstream then BEVs. Reasons: people are afraid of range anxiety, BEV's still rather expensive, car industry not willing/trying to change their business(model) and probably some oil industry lobby as well
From that standpoint I understand Porsche. I drive a Lexus currently (until the Model S gets delivered) and I have been very loyal to them. If they would've come out with a PHEV I might not have considered Tesla. But Porsche could've given it a bit more attention to make the range at least 50 miles.In the much-quoted trading-in-a-hybrid study or the subsequent I saw a quote of 49% for industry make loyalty. Conquest sales, as they call them, are natural when you have limited choices of vehicles so Nissan's puff on the Leaf can be ignored. If they were competing with a similar Toyota Twig it'd be a different matter.
The Panamera which tested 0.96 didn't have a battery capable of 20 miles driving on board (2/5 of the Karma's battery). That's quite a bit of weight to carry aroud and will definitely influence handling.
ipdamages
Roadster Sport 835
Tesla : S FABULOUS example of a limited edition. No reserve in Tesla | eBay Motors
"So why am I selling this fabulous car? I love this car. But, the Tesla/EV high-voltage charging infrastructure is essentially non-existent in the rural areas where I drive. It probably will be soon but I need to drive on a regular basis now.
I would consider a high quality used Mercedes S400 or Panamera Hybrid as a partial trade."
And to follow up on several other points from this thread, I agree that the Model S beats out the Panamera Hybrid (and PHEV, a.k.a. e-Hybrid) in almost every criterion on which they can be compared. The two notable exceptions for me are range for long trips (given the ICE as compared to batteries) and I don't really like either car's looks, but I'll give the Panamera a slight nod on that criterion - IMO. I suspect that with the new Performance Plus option the Model S Perf will be able to leave the Panamera behind on just about any course.
Everything else is for me an easy pick - Model S all the way.
That said, the data tell us that the cars compete for customers, and many have chosen and are choosing the Panamera (including in Hybrid form) over the Model S. But things are shifting in Tesla's favor, and as I see it, it is only going to get better for Tesla.
"So why am I selling this fabulous car? I love this car. But, the Tesla/EV high-voltage charging infrastructure is essentially non-existent in the rural areas where I drive. It probably will be soon but I need to drive on a regular basis now.
I would consider a high quality used Mercedes S400 or Panamera Hybrid as a partial trade."
And to follow up on several other points from this thread, I agree that the Model S beats out the Panamera Hybrid (and PHEV, a.k.a. e-Hybrid) in almost every criterion on which they can be compared. The two notable exceptions for me are range for long trips (given the ICE as compared to batteries) and I don't really like either car's looks, but I'll give the Panamera a slight nod on that criterion - IMO. I suspect that with the new Performance Plus option the Model S Perf will be able to leave the Panamera behind on just about any course.
Everything else is for me an easy pick - Model S all the way.
That said, the data tell us that the cars compete for customers, and many have chosen and are choosing the Panamera (including in Hybrid form) over the Model S. But things are shifting in Tesla's favor, and as I see it, it is only going to get better for Tesla.
Green Car Reports on the Panamera http://www.greencarreports.com/news...s-and-porsche-panamera-plug-in-hybrid-compete
Raffy.Roma
Rome (Italy)
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