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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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Can you guys add some label to your posts indicating that you're replying to mmd or myusername so I can feel free to skip right past those? TIA

There is a way to figure that out without putting the burden on other people.

A quick look at the sentence structure will tell you if it is a reply.

When you have someone on ignore for whatever reason, their quote does not appear in the reply.

Toggle ignore on and off a few time and you will see it.

If you just don't read anything without a gray box at the top, unless it is data or a discourse, it works OK.
 
I have decided that it might be a good challenge to convince some in this group that Tesla thriving a year from this September is important. That is after the tax credit is halved.

  1. For folks who read the Bible, there is a administrative servant that learns that he is going to lose his job. He cuts deals on people's debt and makes friends with lots of people, using his last access to, or power over money to win friends. If Tesla were to use this method, it would apply the tax credit leverage to win favor with the class of people who can help them thrive in the future. That would be a young demographic that cannot afford a single $50,000 car today, but the lifetime buy and networking leverage of these families matters a lot. That means, as soon as you can make the $35,000 car, make a lot of them. The favor of the $7,500 credit means more to them than anyone else you can give it to. It also actually means more to you, as well.
  2. Here is that matrix from "A Framework for Understanding Poverty" mentioned earlier. I circled some items in the middle column, as I think the middle class will be key to Tesla's success.These are the people who care enough about work to commute hour(s) a day. The world most benefits if these people have a Model 3. But it has to be a good money management decision to buy the Model 3, and then word of mouth about how "It really does save money!" to drive sales next September. For this to work, these people need the $35,000 (-7500) = $27,500 car as soon as possible. There are a couple of things going on there. Tesla is better off if they do not eat the seed corn - long term. The model 3 is good, better than anyone could have a right to expect. The money is best used to trigger the word of mouth customer acceptance time constant with the middle class. Some prudent people will not buy a car in its first model year. The car needs to establish itself in their neighborhood this autumn if you want them to buy it next September. And we want them to buy it next September.
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  3. A lot of people do not recognize the cost of delay. With a normal trapezoidal shaped market life revenue curve, a month of delay on critical activities early translates into a month of lost revenue *at mature demand*. A quick outline of why that is can be seen when you look at the tail end of the trapezoid - when people stop buying Model 3s. Once a car is defined, that obsolescence (perhaps after a life cycle impulse) is determined by competitors. What we have now is a pile of all the money a model 3 will ever make. The whole goal is to make that pile of money as big as possible.

    What does that mean for a 1 month delay on the critical model 3 customer acceptance events? Mature annual demand is about 1,000,000 cars (I think that is conservative - the design is that good.). At $42K per car that is 42K*10^6/12months, or 3,500,000K, or 3.5 billion dollars in lost revenue that you will never see again. The critical event is bridging to the middle class. If you do that in June rather than December that is 6 months of lost revenue and a significant loss of incentive. That translates into 21 billion of revenue that Tesla will never see.
The most important thing Tesla can do for their future, and the future of all legitimate longs, is make and sell a lot of the $27,500 version starting this calendar year, 2017.

The reason I disagreed with you is that your conclusion does not logically follow from your premises. And your responses to the supply-constraint argument shows you have no respect for the financial situation that Tesla is in. Companies that take the "moral high road" and leave money on the table are charities and don't have the means to disrupt entire industries, ESPECIALLY since there's zero guarantees that the people who are buying the base model 3 are less well-off than those who choose the high-price options. We see it with the model S owners who camp at the superchargers to save a few bucks.
 
The reason I disagreed with you is that your conclusion does not logically follow from your premises. And your responses to the supply-constraint argument shows you have no respect for the financial situation that Tesla is in. Companies that take the "moral high road" and leave money on the table are charities and don't have the means to disrupt entire industries, ESPECIALLY since there's zero guarantees that the people who are buying the base model 3 are less well-off than those who choose the high-price options. We see it with the model S owners who camp at the superchargers to save a few bucks.
Thank you for spelling things out. It helps.

I need to put meat on the bones of my premises. I agree the skeletons don't support the conclusions.

If people can wait two years, demand is soft and may not support a higher selling price. There is only $1000 on the table right now. Why can't they wait until after the self driving revolution has occurred and reap the benefits of the sharing economy? The cost of transportation is falling right now. Is it the best time to buy an expensive car? Were the deposits actual demand, micro interest free loans, or $7,500 lottery tickets?

I don't know, but I do know that the car is great!

Did Ford leave money on the table whe selling Model Ts for a fraction of the price of other vehicles? Many would say, yes he did. What would you say?

I don't know the answer to all these questions but I do owe more than skeletons.

Thanks.
 
Thank you for spelling things out. It helps.

I need to put meat on the bones of my premises. I agree the skeletons don't support the conclusions.

If people can wait two years, demand is soft and may not support a higher selling price. There is only $1000 on the table right now. Why can't they wait until after the self driving revolution has occurred and reap the benefits of the sharing economy? The cost of transportation is falling right now. Is it the best time to buy an expensive car? Were the deposits actual demand, micro interest free loans, or $7,500 lottery tickets?

I don't know, but I do know that the car is great!

Did Ford leave money on the table whe selling Model Ts for a fraction of the price of other vehicles? Many would say, yes he did. What would you say?

I don't know the answer to all these questions but I do owe more than skeletons.

Thanks.

IIRC, Ford started the Model T's at a higher price (highest?), and over time began to drop the price. Someone posted that data a while back. Maybe @RobStark ?
 
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Elon Musk is not a farmer.

He is a Big Game Hunter.
Tell me about this hammer and where he is headed.
image.jpeg
 
The concept of seed corn might be lost on some. Farming is a long time constant business. You do not eat the entire harvest, or else there will be no food next year and everybody dies. The tax rebate is like seed corn. It can be "eaten" to maximize margins now, or it can be applied in a way that keeps Tesla out of harms way from near death experiences, let's call this "planting" in fertile ground.

@22522 I think @Oil4AsphaultOnly perhaps already kind of summed up how I thought about your seed corn premise.

Maximizing a given position is always a favorite of mine to see if I can break the logic. Along those lines, would you argue that Tesla ate its seed corn by garnering the margins it did on X, S & Roadster by not selling them at a lower price to create even happier customers?

Because I feel like this line of logic walks a person into a very tenuous position given it is totally at odds with the Master Plan.
 
Tell me about this hammer and where he is headed.

Spending a couple of days at a cousin's farm when you are 17 doesn't make you a farmer.

Anymore than me spending a few days at SpaceX makes me a rocket scientist.

Service Should not be a profit center.

Superchargers should not be a profit center.

And now Tesla should minimize profits on Cars.

That is a sure fire way to grow to millions of sales per year.
 
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@22522 I think @Oil4AsphaultOnly perhaps already kind of summed up how I thought about your seed corn premise.

Maximizing a given position is always a favorite of mine to see if I can break the logic. Along those lines, would you argue that Tesla ate its seed corn by garnering the margins it did on X, S & Roadster by not selling them at a lower price to create even happier customers?

Because I feel like this line of logic walks a person into a very tenuous position given it is totally at odds with the Master Plan.
No, I don't think they ate seed corn with those cars. But would have squandered it if the 3 (or other highly producible vehicle) were not available for the two quarters after the 200K trigger event.

The answer to your question is above. From here on it is rambling, for now.

I have said several times that I am ok losing "my" credit to walk in buyers, because Tesla needs the floor traffic buyer to be trained when the subsidy drops by half. The key point being that the incentive of the subsidy should be used to get Tesla through the lull at the end of the subsidy. When the subsidy drops, Tesla should have already established credibility and loyalty supporting stories in the middle class neighborhoods. There is a six to nine month time constant on building credibility. That means you want to alter the mix toward $35K cars in November and December of this year. This is different than what I thought made sense a few months ago. Key point being, "A $50,000 car sale can never be used to make a net promoter story that plays with the middle class. A $25,500 to $27,500 car sale can be used to make that net promoter story - the math actually works for the family household." (I actually think the math works at $35k, but not as compellingly [if that is a word]. Tesla's future is a function of how many $25,500 to $27,500 seed stories occur before next summer.

I have not drawn the picture that shows the 21 billion in lost revenue by being slow to win the allegiance of the middle class yet, but there is tape of JB where voice tone shows he did not go though all this effort to build toys for rich people.

The one place where I find myself perhaps at odds with the Master Plan is: I want Tesla break the tax credit by shipping so many cars in the six months after they meet the incentive threshold that the lost revenue is comparible to the GM bailout.

The unbounded nature of that incentive leaves Tesla susceptible to a big company that does not really buy into EVs. I would demonstrate the unbounded nature by delivering as many of the easiest to build car I had inside that window. The one with fewest parts and fewest battery modules. The one that can make a credible case for EVs to the middle class - using customer stories from the middle class. The one with an effective selling price of $25,500 to $27,500.

So Tesla's future depends more on the product mix going into December than almost any other outstanding factor. It will be the stories that these cars generate that carry Tesla past the edge of incentives.
 
IIRC, Ford started the Model T's at a higher price (highest?), and over time began to drop the price. Someone posted that data a while back. Maybe @RobStark ?

This is nothing new. It applies to all very profitable products with no competition. Some people will be willing to pay more than others, so by setting the price high first, you capture that extra value early adopters are willing to give you, then move downmarket if you need to.

I used to think that ASP will have to come down to $35-40k after ~12-18 months once the federal tax credit expires and competition increases, but now I think Tesla may keep ASP high in the $42-45k range since competition is even further behind that I originally thought and Tesla has made it clear that the bottom-line matters to them as much as it matters to shareholders.
 
What are your Model 3 unit, gross margin, and R&D expense projections for 3Q17, 4Q17, 1Q18, and 2Q18?

Units (deliveries) : 2000/8000/40000/60000
Gross margin : negative/0%/15%/20%
R&D : GAAP or not?

Note that I have a much more conservative ramp up. I basically think that automated assembly will only start up by the end of the year. Gross margin's basically just repeating what Elon always said. (I don't think they will actually break out gross margin in 3Q17 for the model 3 btw). R&D is just going to grow steadily (+10% or so q-o-q) but GAAP may see sudden spikes as various stock option grant targets related to Model 3 are met.
 
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@myusername, every one of your posts comparing BMW to Tesla in terms of revenues and market cap overlooks one critical item: growth. BMW Is growing about 7% per year. Tesla has been growing 50%+ per year and that could increase in 2018 with Model 3.

The market values growth. Why? Well consider this: a company like BMW growing 7% a year takes more than 10 years to double revenues. A company like Tesla growing 50% doubles revenues in less than 2 years. Which stock would you rather own? The one that can double in 10 years or the one that can double in 2 years?

The disparity in growth rates is the fundamental reason that bears like you fail to understand why the market values Tesla so much higher than the traditional auto companies.

actually... the misunderstanding is that you think I don't understand what growth means... i am completely aware that Tesla grew from 50k/yr to 75k/yr... and what I believe you are NOT aware of is that has no reflection on the probability of success in growing from 100k/yr to 500k/yr just as that has no reflection on the probability of success in growing from 1m/yr to 2m/yr.

you get that?... you think since Tesla built an extra 25k cars last year... it's all gravy from here.

I don't... I think their growth RATE is NOT flat... but will rapidly decline over time... they will NOT grow at 50% yoy for 10 years... I believe it's insane to expect that.

I think IF they become the size of BMW... it won't be until 2025... and by then there will be so much competition, they'll simply be "just another" auto company.

so why would I want to pay BMW price for TSLA... 5 to 7 YEARS IN ADVANCE... ahead of all of the risks that could drop the stock to zero overnight?

only one reason... that anticitizen pointed out... high risk disposable cash for a lottery ticket... considering this stock to be anything better than that is naive... but that being the case... you might as well buy options since 3x or 10x is silly if you're playing the lottery with small amounts of money.
 
Spending a couple of days at a cousin's farm when you are 17 doesn't make you a farmer.

Anymore than me spending a few days at SpaceX makes me a rocket scientist.

Service Should not be a profit center.

Superchargers should not be a profit center.

And now Tesla should minimize profits on Cars.

That is a sure fire way to grow to millions of sales per year.

I almost missed the sarcasm, but I'm thick headed. Service and Supercharging seem to be positioned to fund massive expansion. Traditional autos have shell, mobile and BP to super then in the fuel side and dealerships in the service side. Tesla has neither and thusly needs to build them out at great cost to Tesla. Making them somewhat revenue neutral can be good and bad. If surcharging is cheaper then charging at home, it will incentivize charging at a super charger. This makes me think that Tesla will add solar and turn Supercharging into a profit center in so much that is a couple of cents per KWh more expensive then charging at home. Same with the service center but to a lesser extent as cheap service doesn't necessarily make people want to visit a service center, but those service centers are not cheap but they do have a duo purpose as a selling expense, so I see Tesla trying to balance maintenance fees with costs to service and sell the vehicles.

One thing that is always left out when comparison valuations to other autos is that Tesla is the manufacturer, gas station and the dealership. So Tesla's 55B evaluation is not comparable directly with GMs. It would be more like comparing Tesla to GM + 1000 gas stations (discounted because most charge at home) and 250 dealerships. Toss in a few $B for TE Anand you get a better comparison. Just as GM gets no income from service and fuel, Tesla would strive to mostly just fund the build out, including solar+battery and the full cost for sales and service. That would be atleast 5-10B worth if the valuation. I have shown how Tesla can become the largest consumers of electricity and the biggest utility to support that consumption and how that could be very profitable. This would also allow them to control costs and supply and could give them an insurmountable advantage as it relates to the Tesla network. Even if competition goes EV+autonomous they won't be EV+autonomous+solar+battery. This advantage would be the difference between 1-2c/mi vs 7c/mi for EV and 8.5c for gas. An efficient enough hybrid would be competitive without factoring in maintenance which is magnified by traveling 50-100k miles per year. But nothing would compare to utility grade solar+battery and Superchargers.

1-2c was calculated by using 4c/KWh for utility grade solar and then dividing that by 3 for 333Wh/mi which is more like 240Wh/mi for the model 3. The 7c would be based on something like the bolt using 20c/KWh retail rates during busy drive times divided by 275Wh/mi for the bolt. This is what I would call insurmountable. Tesla had no choice but to build out the Superchargers to support their products, the added advantage is that they would be building the lowest cost, highest consumption utility on the planet where Tesla is the supplier and the consumer. No one could build this network cheaper because no one else makes autos, solar and batteries. The is why I don't think it matters much of Tesla is first with autonomous because they can but it from an oem in 2-5 years when they are making 2m-6m cars a year to quickly flood the market with the cheapest autonomous EV per mile by a wide margin. Though I think they will get their first.
 
Clearly you lack conviction. If this was actually true and you had to short something, there are all types of companies headed to bankruptcy, where one would actually net 100% profit. You KNOW even if you think Tesla is overvalued, it's not going to 0. Not even a 50% retrace from here. Don't bother trying to push that nonsense on us. Either you're not great at picking stocks or that statement is quite dishonest. What motivates you to short Tesla over a company with no future prospects/atrocious leadership/declining growth oh and since it matters to you, environmental harm when Tesla has none of these faults? It's only fault is in >>your<< opinion it's "overvalued"?
Get real.
Publicly traded companies do not care about you. It's naive to think so. I want government subsidized scientific funding to be increased to find dramatic technological advances. This "experiment" that is Tesla is an attempt to be both at the same time and it's resulted in people like the OP "donating" their money... not investing it... combining that with "emotional driven" ETFs, we now have a hyper inflated stock. It's a short.
 
Units (deliveries) : 2000/8000/40000/60000
Gross margin : negative/0%/15%/20%
R&D : GAAP or not?

Note that I have a much more conservative ramp up. I basically think that automated assembly will only start up by the end of the year. Gross margin's basically just repeating what Elon always said. (I don't think they will actually break out gross margin in 3Q17 for the model 3 btw). R&D is just going to grow steadily (+10% or so q-o-q) but GAAP may see sudden spikes as various stock option grant targets related to Model 3 are met.

You're assuming the company will not get to its stated year-end 2017 goal even by June 2018, even though they just repeated their goal four months before year-end and they don't seem to be having any major issues with it. That's like me saying I'll walk over to your place in 15 minutes, and you're assuming I'll get there until tomorrow. Do you realize how chaotic life would be if everyone operated with the same conservatism you just presented?

I think your margin assumptions are relatively okay, but still conservative. Elon guided for Model 3 margins to approach those of Model S/X when production is at 5k/week, 20%+ in1Q18. You're assuming Tesla will not get there even by 2Q18.

GAAP r&d will increase but won't just jump because majority of equity incentive plan options are already classified as "probable of achievement" so already being recognized over time. Read page 23 of latest 10-Q, which everyone should have on their nightstand. Knowledge is the antidote to FUD.

But even with all that conservatism, your assumptions would lead to better bottom-line results than what I included in my graphs (and article) yesterday for 1H18. Think about that for a second...
 
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Sorry you have only your wish.But there is a poll to back my statement. If this is how TMC fansite of know-it-alls voted, the twitter followers would have even higher expectations on this because of Elon tweets.
[POLL] Will base model M3 beat the Chevy Bolt's 238 mile EPA range?
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@mmd -- it turns out the "truth" is mutable... and statements made in the past can simply be forgotten or altered... e.g. "nobody ever expected 100k to 200k per year in 2017 because Elon said RATE of that by end of year... duh!"

then when I post 10 links to evidence that most believed 100k+ deliveries in 2017 was stated... then the terms FUD and Troll start coming out.

this has to be the best setup for a short imaginable.
 
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