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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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vgrinshpun

Supporting Member
Apr 5, 2013
5,886
22,789
PA
Any recent brilliant trading advice from Paul Krugman? Taking the opposite side has been very profitable.

To state the obvious, he is an economist, and does not dispense trading advice. If he would, as an economist, his advice would be "yes and no"

Not sure what are you talking about...

When futures were falling Nov 8th Paul did make a call...
Still, I guess people want an answer: If the question is when markets will recover, a first-pass answer is never.

So we are very probably looking at a global recession, with no end in sight. I suppose we could get lucky somehow. But on economics, as on everything else, a terrible thing has just happened

Paul Krugman: The Economic Fallout

Go ahead nitpick & spin like you typically do.

So, where is the trading advice??

Just read his last 5 "doom & gloom" opinion pieces & I didn't see mention of the market, I think he learned his lesson after predicting the market would never recover after the Dow futures being down 750 points on Nov 8th to wiping out those losses & rallying the next day.

The irony of your "nitpicking" and "spinning" comment is eye watering. Just as a reminder the "brilliant trading advice from Paul Krugman" were YOUR words. So my comment is that he did not give any trading advice.

Something is fundamentally wrong with your point if you need to twist person's words so much to make it...
 
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Lump

Active Member
Mar 31, 2013
2,617
2,399
So. Cal.
When a Klugman said "Still, I guess people want an answer: If the question is when markets will recover, a first-pass answer is never." that's making a market call! I know you will argue this to death because you always have to be right & twist & spin & combine posts etc..have at it.

Good night.
 

STARR X

Member
Jan 5, 2013
162
458
Decatur, Georgia
Is stamping not in a building all to itself? I believe it is. NUMMI would have put in 'bay doors' in that building. I've never not seen bay door access to a stamping facility. I can't see how they'd have to haul press parts through the production line building to get into the stamping building. Does not make sense.

When my family & l took the Fremont tour in December, I got the sense the exisiting press was near an outside wall.
 

Lump

Active Member
Mar 31, 2013
2,617
2,399
So. Cal.
Keep in mind that the author of that article regularly does hit pieces on SpaceX. Important to wait until the GAO report actually comes out.

So I'm no rocket scientist, but since they started to deliver commercial payloads, SpaceX had 30 missions and 2-3 failures, none related to the engines or fuel pumps. If the problem was really this severe, wouldn't their rockets be exploding left and right?

Basically, F.U.D.

That, and SpaceX would have long since fixed the problem. They have a huge financial incentive to avoid rocket failures.

SpaceX says fix underway for rocket turbine wheel cracking

SpaceX's final version of the Falcon 9 rocket, which Elon Musk aims to launch before the end of the year, will fix a potential problem with cracks in its turbopumps, the company said on Thursday

In an email to Reuters, SpaceX said it has "qualified our engines to be robust to turbine wheel cracks. However, we are modifying the design to avoid them altogether,” said spokesman John Taylor.
 

Krugerrand

Is Cat
Jul 13, 2012
10,773
51,801
Tesla friendly place
When my family & l took the Fremont tour in December, I got the sense the exisiting press was near an outside wall.

That was the impression I got too from the pictures I've seen. I imagine that worse case scenario it would be more cost effective to knock out some wall, then to shut down production of hundreds of cars for a 10 day period. Maybe someone can do that math?

And also...was expansion of the stamping building part of the recent expansion approval of the Fremont factory?? If so, a hole in the wall there might actually be something they'd incorporate into the expansion.
 
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Krugerrand

Is Cat
Jul 13, 2012
10,773
51,801
Tesla friendly place
SpaceX says fix underway for rocket turbine wheel cracking

SpaceX's final version of the Falcon 9 rocket, which Elon Musk aims to launch before the end of the year, will fix a potential problem with cracks in its turbopumps, the company said on Thursday

In an email to Reuters, SpaceX said it has "qualified our engines to be robust to turbine wheel cracks. However, we are modifying the design to avoid them altogether,” said spokesman John Taylor.

So as usual, media and whomever run with a story making it seem worse than it is and Elon is already on it and addressing it. Just like everything else.

Problems will occur. That's a given. The difference is that Elon's companies are proactive whereas other companies are 'how can we cover this up?'
 

EnzoXYZ

Member
Aug 11, 2016
715
2,066
Chicago
That was the impression I got too from the pictures I've seen. I imagine that worse case scenario it would be more cost effective to knock out some wall, then to shut down production of hundreds of cars for a 10 day period. Maybe someone can do that math?

And also...was expansion of the stamping building part of the recent expansion approval of the Fremont factory?? If so, a hole in the wall there might actually be something they'd incorporate into the expansion.
Yup Probably. The photos I've seen of the factory isn't a big box but many buildings combined thus many outer wall. My money is still on upgrading the S/X line rather work on the M3 line affecting the S/X line. We will soon find out. I rather have Tesla meet S/X demand than too much effort on lower cost / margin cars.

Given this I do not see this really affecting the share price. Probably a no news unless it's a good FUD story on a slow day.
 
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MitchJi

Trying to learn kindness, patience & forgiveness
Jun 1, 2015
3,971
8,905
Marin County, CA
I posted a picture of a sign...

STOP defying your Moderator.
I
would have been nicer to you and simply ported over your long post to another TMC location, but you have been irredeemably defying the established rules of this forum.

A very, very good reason to keep discussions at least somewhat parceled into respective subforms is to give all the opportunity to cross-pollinate their own and others' ideas in the most fertile grounds available. The Investors' Forum, as I'm getting a little weary of having to recapitulate, is
primarily for the reasons at the top of this thread. YES, providing a sense of what in the sociopolitical world is affecting the investment world is appropriate but NO, this will not become the soapbox for your own political views, with the merest soupçon of 'market importance' as an attempt of justification.

In other words: get out 'there' and continue such discussions; bring back 'here' the relevant NEW observations you glean from others.

And that goes for everyone.

Now, Mitch: I'm using the excuse that this is a weekend and have been extra nice to you: your long post is preserved in the PM you're about to get. Post it elsewhere - do not bring it back here or a disaster of unimaginable proportion
will occur (is that what the Opera Phantom said?)
 
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Yggdrasill

Active Member
Feb 29, 2012
4,107
7,107
Kongsberg, Norway
I've been looking at the probable Model 3 and Powerwall/Powerpack 2 architecture based on the pictures wk057 provided of the P100D pack architecture, and I think I've previously overestimated the amount of cells needed per pack. Which also means that I've underestimated the capacity per cell, at least for Tesla Energy.

First some assumptions, I've assumed that Tesla will be using the same cooling architecture as the 100 kWh pack, which means cooling in between the cells, but significantly more compact coolant loops. I've also assumed the powerwall battery contains two modules, identical to the ones found in the Model 3 (eight in number), totalling around 700x700 mm.

I estimate that a gen 3 module would have 30 cells in each row and 16 rows, 480 cells in total. Probably arranged in a 12s40p, but potentially it could be arranged in a 48s10p configuration. This means the pack module could have two cooling loops just like the 100 kWh pack.

Both the more traditional 12s40p configuration and a 48s10p configuration offers some interesting properties, especially the 48s10p configuration, in my view.

12s40p

In this case, the Powerwall has a 100V battery voltage with two modules in series. The powerpack can have a 800V voltage with 16 modules in series. (~800V jives with AudubonB's observation of 900V markings.) The Model 3 would have a 400V pack with 8 modules in series.

48s10p

In this case, the Powerwall 2 could have a 400V battery voltage with two modules in series, which means you don't need a lot of DC conversion to reach the specified DC output voltage. The powerpack can have a 800V operating voltage with a 4s4p module configuration. The Model 3 could have a 400V pack with a 2s4p module configuration. This allows for different pack sizes without doing anything to the number of cells in each module. You could have one pack with six modules (2s3p) and one with the full eight modules (2s4p). (On the largest pack, you could also have support for 800V charging, if you could switch between a 4s2p configuration and a 2s4p configuration.)

Each module would end up slightly larger than a gen 1/2 module, roughly 690 mm x 330 mm vs 685 mm x 280 mm. And the total Model 3 pack would be roughly 1.6 meters by 1.2 meters, containing 3840 21-70 cells.

A powerwall would contain 960 cells, which means that with 14 kWh, it would have 14.5 Wh/cell. This would mean a ~34% improvement in battery chemistry over the Powerwall 1, which is a lot, but not impossible, as the NMC chemistry hasn't been close to the NCA chemistry in terms of energy density. There could be significant untapped potential there.

Assuming a ~10% improvement in chemistry for the NCA cells, or 20 Wh/cell, the base 2s3p pack could have 57.6 kWh, and the top spec 2s4p pack could have 76.8 kWh (this would be the same ragerdless of pack configuration.) This would work out to ranges in the area of ~250 miles and ~330 miles. I know this is less than some people are hoping for, but it's still acceptable for Tesla, and the available data supports it.

The benefit with the 48s10p configuration is the following: One module architecture across the Powerwall/Powerpack and Model 3 with two pack sizes, changing only the cell chemistry and number of modules per product. This should simplify production substantially.
 

neroden

Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan
Apr 25, 2011
14,676
62,627
Ithaca, NY, USA
*Sigh* The political situtation at the national level is of course very dangerous, and I have been comparing the histories of previous lawless dictators who seized power in "democracies". Trump's current trajectory does not correspond to the successful ones, but to the ones who got ousted by their own staff, which raises the specter of even more instability. :(

But, dammit, before I flee the country, I'd like my Tesla stock to pay off! ;) Stability through 2019 please!
 

MitchJi

Trying to learn kindness, patience & forgiveness
Jun 1, 2015
3,971
8,905
Marin County, CA
I've been looking at the probable Model 3 and Powerwall/Powerpack 2 architecture based on the pictures wk057 provided of the P100D pack architecture, and I think I've previously overestimated the amount of cells needed per pack. Which also means that I've underestimated the capacity per cell, at least for Tesla Energy.
The TE V1 products initially had two versions, one for backup (less cycles) and the more robust kind. The cells for the backup packs were "very similar in chemistry to the car cells ". All of the TE cells have better cycle life than the car packs.

My first point is that the car packs have significantly better energy density than the backup packs or Tesla would have used the more robust backup pack cells for their cars.

My second point is that even though the chemistry has changed the best way to estimate the energy of the M3 packs vs the TE packs is compare the specs of the V1 backup with the other TE packs (from my subject to error memory I think that was about 15-20 percent), then add another 10-15% for the backup vs cars. I'll try to look it up later when I'm not on my tablet.
 

MitchJi

Trying to learn kindness, patience & forgiveness
Jun 1, 2015
3,971
8,905
Marin County, CA
*Sigh* The political situtation at the national level is of course very dangerous, and I have been comparing the histories of previous lawless dictators who seized power in "democracies". Trump's current trajectory does not correspond to the successful ones, but to the ones who got ousted by their own staff, which raises the specter of even more instability. :( [
I agree with the bold portion of that assessment, But I think that that's a reason to be optimistic! I would be more concerned if it looked like trump had a good chance of mounting a successful takeover.

OTOH the fact that we're even discussing this is not encouraging!
 
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AlMc

'When the music is on...you gotta dance' (Go Elon)
Apr 23, 2013
7,346
15,494
Delaware
I posted a picture of a sign from the holocaust museum that lists "Early warning signs of fasism" that went viral after trump talked there and everyone here sees that the list has an almost 99% correlate with trumps actions and that's not a problem or it's not relevant to the market or TSLA?!

Sean Spicer said that the administration is planning to periodically put out a list of crimes committed by immigrants. The nazi's published a similar list of crimes committed by Jews. Do you believe that's a coincidence or that they are deliberately copying the a nazi strategy? If it's a coincidence is that really comforting that they are using the same strategy to demean immigrants that the nazi's used to demonize the Jews. I'm not too worried because of the huge pushback.

OTOH all of the posts on this forum supporting their strategy is not comforting.


You really believe that that's relevant or important?


Do you really believe that the fact that a picture of a sign that went viral from the holocaust museum that lists early warning signs of fasism, that correlates almost 100% with the new administrative actions isn't relevant to the short or medium term investor? Don't you think that the fact that pro trump members of this forum see the same correlation, but consider it an attack is a cause for concern? Do you think that this is less relevant than the trolls posts about TSLA that you constantly defend?

Holocaust Museum Issues Gift Shop Item Goes Viral

After a photo of an especially timely gift shop item went viral, the museum issued a statement
It was a busy week for the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, where a photo taken at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum gift shop of a poster entitled “Early Warning Signs of Fascism” went viral on Twitter over the weekend. On Tuesday, museum staff to issued a second statement on the refugee crisis in Syria and Trump’s plans to deny those seeking relocation within the United States.

“American policy should fully address national security concerns while protecting legitimate refugees whatever their national or religious identity,” the statement reads.

The controversial poster, originally inspired by the work of the elusive Laurence W. Britt, lists indicators of fascism, which struck a chord with Twitter user “Sarah Rose,” who posted it on Monday — along with the 265,000 others that liked her post and 185,000 others who retweeted it. According to a communications officer at the museum, the poster has been carried since June 2016, though this is the first time it has garnered such widespread attention.

“I was shook to the core,” she told Vocativ in a Twitter message. “Apparently I wasn’t alone. Never did I imagine this would go viral the way that it did. But boy am I glad because it initiated open dialogue on neutral ground and that is what truly brings unity and change. Seeing people I admire such as Ricky Gervais res
pond to the post was inspiring and moving.”

The tweet was posted just days after Holocaust Remembrance Day, the same day that President Donald Trump signed an executive order that temporarily restricts the immigration of residents of seven Muslim-majority countries and halts the entry of Syrian refugees indefinitely. In the brief statement in regard to the Holocaust made that day, Trump neglected to use the word anti-Semitism or even mention Jews, the core group targeted by the Nazis, by name. Just as Sarah Rose’s tweet went viral, a thematically-related
Twitter account launched on Friday called the St. Louis Manifest gained tens of thousands of followers around the same time for posting brief bios of Holocaust victims killed after they were turned away from entering the United States.

I believe that the fact that there's a plausible connection between fasism and trumps actions is a reason to be concerned about the market's reaction. The market is frequently very sensitive to any type of perceived risk.
Short answer to your reply to my section: Yes, out of place IMO. Opinions vary
 

mmd

Banned
Jun 22, 2015
1,338
-2
San Jose, CA
Yup Probably. The photos I've seen of the factory isn't a big box but many buildings combined thus many outer wall. My money is still on upgrading the S/X line rather work on the M3 line affecting the S/X line. We will soon find out. I rather have Tesla meet S/X demand than too much effort on lower cost / margin cars.

Given this I do not see this really affecting the share price. Probably a no news unless it's a good FUD story on a slow day.

There is also a very simple answer to these factory shutdowns: throttling. Check www.ev-cpo.com. 832 Model S with no customer names on them.
U.S. Model S New Inventory -- (832 Listings) Buy a New Model S Today!

In comparison, cars.com shows 797 BMW 750 in the entire U.S.
 
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Lump

Active Member
Mar 31, 2013
2,617
2,399
So. Cal.
Recent Dow high reached is 20,125, back on Nov 8th futures low was 18,200.
Yesterday Nasdaq 100 closed at 5,157, on Nov 9 futures low was 4558.
(larger % gains in Financials & Small Caps)

Poor predictions were made & sounds like some missed out.
 

techmaven

Active Member
Feb 27, 2013
3,618
9,711
There is also a very simple answer to these factory shutdowns: throttling. Check www.ev-cpo.com. 832 Model S with no customer names on them.
U.S. Model S New Inventory -- (832 Listings) Buy a New Model S Today!

In comparison, cars.com shows 797 BMW 750 in the entire U.S.

Add in the 740s... 1,032, 740e's... 80, and the B7's... 24, and 224 640s, 395 640 GCs, 207 650s, 270 650 GCs, and 119 M6's... we're talking roughly 3,000 of those in the U.S. on lots right now. BMW sold 13k 7 series and 4k 6 series in 2016 in the U.S., so that's the fairer comparison.
 
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EinSV

Active Member
Feb 6, 2016
4,320
21,392
NorCal
AP2 appears to be improving quickly.

New software update increases Autosteer limit from 45 to 50 mph and TACC limit from 75 to 80 mph. A new side collision warning feature has also been activated.

17.5.28

Also a TMC user with an earlier version of the software posted a video showing very respectable AP2 performance during Chicago rush hour:

My quick drive home
 

Yggdrasill

Active Member
Feb 29, 2012
4,107
7,107
Kongsberg, Norway
The TE V1 products initially had two versions, one for backup (less cycles) and the more robust kind. The cells for the backup packs were "very similar in chemistry to the car cells ". All of the TE cells have better cycle life than the car packs.
The TE V1 products used the same battery modules as the cars, just with different cells. (Two in the Powerwall and 32 in the Powerpack.) A Model S has 16 modules, so with ~86 kWh in a top end pack (with the old architecture), using the automotive cells would result in a capacity of 10.75 kWh for a Powerwall. The powerwall for backup was advertized at 10 kWh. I think it's very likely the 10 kWh powerwall used the automotive cells with no changes at all.

The daily cycle TE products used quite different NMC cells, with a resulting 3.2 kWh per module (6.4 kWh for the Powerwall and 102.4 kWh for the Powerpack.) These cells had around 7.2 Wh/cell instead of 12.1 Wh/cell like the automotive cells.
My first point is that the car packs have significantly better energy density than the backup packs or Tesla would have used the more robust backup pack cells for their cars.
This is true. In the 18650 cells, NMC provided only about 60% of the capacity than NCA provided. I think the 21-70s (including all other improvements) will improve this to the point where NMC will provide around 72.5% of the capacity of NCA.

My second point is that even though the chemistry has changed the best way to estimate the energy of the M3 packs vs the TE packs is compare the specs of the V1 backup with the other TE packs (from my subject to error memory I think that was about 15-20 percent), then add another 10-15% for the backup vs cars. I'll try to look it up later when I'm not on my tablet.
You're velcome to try to come up with better estimates. I think I'm getting quite close with my estimates. :)

Edit: Just to add a clarifying overview of cell capacities:

18650 NMC cell for Tesla Energy: 7.2 Wh
18650 NCA cell for Tesla Automotive: 12.1 Wh
21-70 NMC cell for Tesla Energy with 0% improvement in chemistry: ~10.8 Wh
21-70 NCA cell for Tesla Automotive with 0% improvement in chemistry: ~18.2 Wh
21-70 NMC cell for Tesla Energy with 34% improvement in chemistry: ~14.5 Wh
21-70 NCA cell for Tesla Automotive with 10% improvement in chemistry: ~20 Wh
 
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