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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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Crap, my wife uses her S for a daily 120 mile commute through all kinds of Montana weather. I guess I should let her know she's doing it wrong.

She doesn't work at the coffee shop...?
:p

Since Jobs everyone seems to think that industrial design has to be as minimalistic as possible...[ ] and I don't get why everyone wants to copy Jobs style
which is basically a reflection of his cold heart.
Did you know him?
Having trouble figuring who's heart is actually cold here--
Otherwise, yes the minimalistic designs seem to have proven particularly detrimental to Apple and the many forced to adopt same, to stay relevant;
Can't get why anyone would take a lesson from that cold hearted result--
 
Again, a few felt strips makes a world of difference. Tesla should get better in this area, but they are about on par with a slew of luxury marquees. The actual materials and plastics are actually not that different. Matter of fact, Daimler and Tesla share the same tier 2 supplier for the interior door panels. I'm not sure about the dash supplier, I think it is the same one.



True, there are more adjustable options in the top of the line seats and I prefer the head rests in some of the other vehicles. The Model S is closer to the mid-range of luxury vehicles, like the E class rather than the top of the line vehicles in that regard.



I actually sat in an XC90 and played with that cylinder and the rest of the controls. It was gimmicky and completely superfluous in a Tesla. And the picture you linked to is exactly the carve out I talked about - the Volvo XC90 Excellence variant. That has the front seat ottoman and the rear executive seats. Very nice. Also, not a fan of the transmission tunnel. The Bowers & Wilkins speaker system option ought to be fantastic though. But it's a relatively small subset of buyers looking for a $100k+ 4 seater where the right rear seat is the #1 seat, rather than the driver's seat. Tesla does not yet address that market.

However, just because Tesla doesn't address what is essentially the limo market doesn't mean that Tesla's Model S/X interiors are trash and are basically equivalent to the BMW 3 series. That's not true at all. I will say that whomever at Tesla did the executive rear seats either had no idea what they were doing or were given the wrong marching orders and budget. Tesla should definitely address the 4 seat luxury market for the Model X... an area I hope the new hire from Volvo really make a difference.

Now, I don't expect the Model 3 to have a fantastic interior. For example, Bolt's interior seems definitely much worse than its Buick Encore cousin that starts at $24k. The expense went into the drivetrain. I suspect the Model 3 is going to be similar in many respects... the major expense went into the drivetrain, vehicle dynamics, charging network, and vehicle electronics. It does seem that Tesla might be leaving money on the table if they don't come up with some nice internal furnishings for lots of additional money, especially if autonomy comes sooner rather than later.

Again, the distance from a Model S/X from many of its competitors is aesthetic choice, not materials difference. The exception is the limo-like versions, and Tesla will need to address that.

Some people expect too much for too little. They want top of the class safety, ultra lux interior with restoration hardware type top-grain leather, bedazzled rims, pop up "J" door handles, 17 inch display panels, and best in class batteries with minimal maintenance. All for the price of $35k.

If you're not happy with the M3, simply walk your way to a BMW dealer and tell them to make you all this for $35k. The salesman will tell you, "sure we have what you're looking for--the i3" check out the interior and see what you get. Ultra lux? Not even close, the seats on the i3 practically has no pads, the screen is about 8inches, pathetic. The leather? How about pleather? There you go folks, $35k for 100 miles of range!

When competition arrives? Give me a break. Oh you want real leather? That's an extra $4k... "oh you want real leather for $35k 'out the door'? Well, there's the door, you can walk yourself back out."
 
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Matter of fact, Daimler and Tesla share the same tier 2 supplier for the interior door panels. I'm not sure about the dash supplier, I think it is the same one.

It is not enough to share the same supplier. They have to match the quality. Each supplier offers various levels of quality.

Cheapest Model S will now be $75k while cheapest S Class is $95k.

Tesla no discounts with exception of $1k referral.

S Class rather large discounts/subsidized leases.

So actually transaction prices are getting close.

Agree those E-Class Recaros in the Model S needs to turn into S-Class Recaros if you are charging $75k-$160k per Model S.
 
Since Jobs everyone seems to think that industrial design has to be as minimalistic as possible, I don't think that most people want to sit in an ice cube and I don't get why everyone wants to copy Jobs style which is basically a reflection of his cold heart.

I don't know Steve Jobs personally, I've only shook his hand once and hung out at a couple of parties where he was in attendance. However, you really think this originated with Mr. Jobs? Have you ever heard of Bauhaus?

Apple and The Bauhaus « Design by Caleb

btw. You (wisely) didn't put up the Tesla interior vs. the Mercedes one, I think many people would agree with me that the one form Mercedes looks more like serious money, Teslas interior just doesn't look expensive.

Well, most of us here stare at the Model S interior a few times or more a day. I didn't think I needed to show it. And you confirmed what I'm saying... you think the design aesthetic communicates more serious money as opposed to the actuality of the materials cost, performance, or value. I do not think that the Mercedes E class interior design invokes more serious money thoughts, which comes down to taste, not the bill of materials.
 
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Here is the Mirai interior. Notice it also lacks driver's instrument gauge, that's stacked above center screen.and is in a deep recess. If Model 3's laptop like screen won't be recessed, it will be washed out in bright sunlight.

mirai_interior.jpg

I test drove the Mirai yesterday. Lot of people are interested, it seems. But not many takers yet. Heard just over 40 leased at this location.

IMG_20170325_115504.jpg


Also read about the interesting race and other comparisons between Model X and Toyota Mirai by Edmunds. Guess which one wins when Mirai has to travel 87 miles more in a 470 mile race?
Hydrogen vs. Electricity Road Trip to Lake Tahoe - 2016 Toyota Mirai Long-Term Road Test

Close Finish in Hydrogen vs. Battery Contest- 2016 Toyota Mirai Long-Term Road Test
 
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Since Jobs everyone seems to think that industrial design has to be as minimalistic as possible, I don't think that most people want to sit in an ice cube and I don't get why everyone wants to copy Jobs style which is basically a reflection of his cold heart.

I couldn't disagree more with this assessment. From a factual perspective, the Apple "style" is primarily driven by Jony Ive. Steve Jobs was more the visionary and editor. This is akin to the working relationship between Tesla's chief designer, Franz von Holhausen, and Elon Musk.

From a subjective standpoint, I'd say that Apple's products reflect quirky fun more than "cold" minimalism. Doesn't anyone remember the iMac? The Bondi Blue G4 tower? iBook? Today's products are a bit more serious, but the iOS and OS X still reflect the odd side of Apple.


Did you know him?
Having trouble figuring who's heart is actually cold here--
Otherwise, yes the minimalistic designs seem to have proven particularly detrimental to Apple and the many forced to adopt same, to stay relevant;
Can't get why anyone would take a lesson from that cold hearted result--

My general opinion is that minimalist designs are only detrimental if they take away features that people need in their product. Several examples of this in past Tesla products have been lack of rear seat cupholders (solved in latest revision), lack of coat hooks, and lack of door pockets. Tesla has responded to some of these concerns in later revisions of the Model S, and the Model X.

I am particularly a fan of the Honda philosophy of 'Man maximum, machine minimum': basically giving the driver what they need, but not so much that it becomes overwhelming or confusing.

Whether Tesla finds this balance in the Model 3 design has yet to be seen. The fears around the center display and interior design tilt towards the "not enough" end of the spectrum, but the truth is that we just won't know the true balance of the interior until the final reveal.
 
It is not enough to share the same supplier. They have to match the quality. Each supplier offers various levels of quality.

Sure.

Agree those E-Class Recaros in the Model S needs to turn into S-Class Recaros if you are charging $75k-$160k per Model S.

Except that what you are buying for the additional money is in the drivetrain, not the interior. There are plenty of vehicles that put the money into the drivetrain. And similarly, you can take an Audi SQ7 and invest a lot of money into the interior and get a Bentley Bentayga. And if you really wanted it, you can certainly go 3rd party and get any number of things done to the interior, it's easier than modifying the drivetrain. Certainly it will be nice one day for Tesla be at the point of scaling where they can loop back and examine the interior with a more critical eye. No doubt there is more work to be done there. But there is again, a far cry from saying that since Tesla doesn't reach the highest levels of luxe interiors, the S/X interiors are trash and at the BMW 3 series level. And the 3 series level isn't trash. The Bolt shows us how much further down that ladder goes for a $35k vehicle, or as @sundaymorning says, go look at the i3's interior for $50k.

I do think that as Tesla runs out of ideas on how to spend R&D on things for us to buy, they can start working on that option sheet like Porsche/Audi/Mercedes.
 
I test drove the Mirai yesterday. Lot of people are interested, it seems. But not many takers yet. Heard just over 40 leased at this location.

That POS Toyota stands no chance against the Honda Clarity.

For people who want an FCEV, the Clarity offers 50+ more miles of range, more power, and a roomy cabin that seats 5 people rather than 4 in the Mirai. Honda's fuel cell powertrain is much better than whatever Toyota is hawking.

All of Toyota's best engineering in recent years has gone to Lexus. Toyota is about making the most reliable transport at the cheapest cost, though that may be changing.
 
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Except that what you are buying for the additional money is in the drivetrain, not the interior.

Allegedly Tesla is approaching cost parity with ICEv. Eats dealer margins and advertiser share of revenue stream.

Mercedes and BMW dealers make ~7% margins probably higher on S Class and 7 Series.

Dealer and OEM put ~$2k in advertising per car.

Allegedly the consumer is supposed to benefit by taking a piece of those margins in cheaper price and/or more stuff.

I'll take better seats, grab handles,and coat hooks please.

In return I also evangelize for Tesla. Fo free.
 
Well the man in the street (like me) thinks his Mini feels more solid, at 15:45 they criticism the interior.
For me the Tesla interior right know is somewhat like a Jackson Pollock painting, a simple man (like me) must be convinced with sophisticated arguments that he is ignorant and the painting is brilliant .... when you have a Salvador Dalí in front of you (almost) everyone get's it, Tesla should shoot for everyone get's it.
 
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...For me the Tesla interior right know is somewhat like a Jackson Pollock painting, a simple man (like me) must be convinced with sophisticated arguments that he is ignorant and the painting is brilliant .... when you have a Salvador Dalí in front of you (almost) everyone get's it, Tesla should shoot for everyone get's it.
I don't get it
 
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That POS Toyota stands no chance against the Honda Clarity.

For people who want an FCEV, the Clarity offers 50+ more miles of range, more power, and a roomy cabin that seats 5 people rather than 4 in the Mirai. Honda's fuel cell powertrain is much better than whatever Toyota is hawking.

All of Toyota's best engineering in recent years has gone to Lexus. Toyota is about making the most reliable transport at the cheapest cost, though that may be changing.

Yes, Clarity looks nicer with more traditional look. I won't call Mirai a POS though; the interior seemed nicely appointed. Honda has been in the fuel cell race for a while. Mirai is Toyota's first fuel cell car. All new Toyotas seem to have a similar facade change, including Prius Prime and new Lexus SUVs. They are selling fine.So, it seems people aren't really put off by how the front facade looks.

The lease deal on Mirai is $2500 down; $350/mo for 12K miles/year; free H2 for 3 years.
The lease deal on Honda Clarity FCV is $367/mo for 20K miles/year; $15K in free hydrogen over 3 years. If someone drives 20K miles a year, choice between the two seems simple.
 
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Well the man in the street (like me) thinks his Mini feels more solid, at 15:45 they criticism the interior.
For me the Tesla interior right know is somewhat like a Jackson Pollock painting, a simple man (like me) must be convinced with sophisticated arguments that he is ignorant and the painting is brilliant .... when you have a Salvador Dalí in front of you (almost) everyone get's it, Tesla should shoot for everyone get's it.

Hearing these guys discuss the quality of leather in a car that does NOT have one is priceless.
 
News flash- interior does nothing for the share price. All matter of taste folks.

Here we go again with M3 taking market share from the MS. I ask again which major car manufacturer (or any product company) has product of one? Mercedes Benz have like 50 variations and they must be doing terrible. Nope I don't want this S class as the A class has just as many wheels. Why in the world would anyone pay 100K for similar amount of wheels on a car!?
 
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