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2017 Investor Roundtable:General Discussion

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I have a rough revenue forecast based on various hints from Tesla/Elon, I would like to know what you guys think about those numbers.

Spreadsheet: Tesla

Thanks for posting this. I won't go into much detail but a few things I would challenge you on:

1) Why cap S/X units at 125k/year since Model 3 and full autonomy will soon multiply Tesla's brand awareness across the world and "competitors" have not even started building their first gigafactories (i.e. zero competition for another 3-5 years). Model S/X have achieved current level of units with limited supercharger and service center networks, both of which are growing. Also note that Supercharger v3 speed will bring in a lot more customers to Tesla.

2) I think you may want to lower your ASPs for outer years. Recent Model S price drop shows Elon is not kidding about accelerating the world's transition to sustainable energy to as close as he can get it to the speed of light. On a side note - I'm curious to see if BMW/Mercedes will try to match it. I doubt that they will or can, which means further market share erosion for them. I wouldn't be surprised if Model S captures more than 40% of luxury sedan market in the US in 2H17 (which brings me back my point #1 above). In addition, with the recent large price drop Model S will quickly start eating into 5-series and C-class. I think your 125k/year estimate for Model S/X will prove very conservative. I think 150-175k/year combined is likely in 2018 and beyond.

3) Generally speaking, I think your automotive unit estimates are too conservative. Just to put it in perspective: you're projecting 1.4 million units in 2022, I'm projecting 4 million in 2020. Tesla is aiming to achieve 1.0-1.5 million cars/year (likely more since the Gigafactory max capacity estimate seems to multiply ever year like a family of rodents) with just Gigafactory 1. What do you think they'll do with "Gigafactories 3, 4, and possibly 5" that they just announced? Let them sit there and look pretty?

4) I would start Powerpack pricing at Rive's recent estimate of $400-600 (so say $500) and reduce it by the same 5-10% per year as you did. Note that the $250/kWh price Elon gave to Australians is just at the pack level. Rive's price includes inverters etc. so it's more complete for modeling purposes. Also - I think 4GWh for 2017 too aggressive as the company will be very busy with the Model 3, but your growth rate assumption of ~100% per year is too conservative. I'm assuming 2GWh for 2017, but 3x growth per year for the next five years. Remember: stationary battery business is expected to grow "several times faster" than the auto business, and auto business will have grown ~80-100% CAGR if Tesla achieves 500k guidance for 2018.

5) I would bring Powerwall unit projections closer to Model 3/Y units as most people who buy either of those cars will likely buy at least one and maybe two Powerwall(s), but I don't know how Tesla will meet this demand. I guess this explains the need to build three more Gigafactories.

6) I think 2018 revenue multiple will be higher but I agree with your estimates for outer years.

Thanks for the Tesla Energy project tab. Very useful and clearly shows the "superexponential" growth rate that Elon and JB have referenced a few times.
 
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It was a letter to Grohmann employees; here's the related paragraph:

“Unlike other automotive manufacturers, each Tesla employee receives Tesla shares in addition to salary. These shares can be easily sold for money, but they also open up the possibility of earning much more through stock appreciation. The tenfold increase in our share price over the past five years has made shareholding exceptionally profitable for our Tesla employees. I firmly believe that we have the potential for a further ten-fold increase over the next five to ten years. That would make a total value of € 100,000 from the € 10,000 in stock.”

I don't think Elon would've put this projection in writing if he didn't give it a very high probability AND thought it would be closer to 5 years than 10. I think the 10 is there for CYA purposes.

My base case predicts 2021/22 for $500B market cap and we may get there sooner if the 2013 squeeze makes a cameo.

You guys know that means basically a $300-$600 increase in SP per year (minus dilution)
I always wondered what it would be like to be very wealthy. Finally my parents could retire.
 
In the TE related news, SDG&E News Release dated April 19 indicates that company signed contracts for 83.5MW/334MWh worth of BES projects, all subject to the approval by California Public Utility Commission (CPUC). The time frame for getting these projects on line is Between December 2019 and 2021:
  • 40MW/160MWh - AES Energy - Facility to be owned and operated by SDG&E
  • 30MW/120MWh - Renewable Energy Systems (RES) Americas - Facility to be owned and operated by SDG&E
  • 9.5MW/38MWh - Enel Green Power North America - merchant BES facility
  • 4MW/16MWh - Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) - merchant BES facility
This is third announcement of large scale deployment of BES systems within a month. Two other announcements:
  • 40MWh of BES by AMS for Wallmart
  • 50MW of BES by AMS, financed by CIT Group. Given the revenue streams (storage for solar, PPA by the SCE, grid services, including reserve capacity and voltage management) and total cost of the project ($200M) leads me to conclude that combined energy rating of these systems is at least 200MWh.
So here is the TE scorecard within the last 30 days (Utility scale projects):
Total Energy Capacity: 334MWh + 40MWh + 200MWh = 574MWh
Energy Capacity by Tesla: 200MWh + 40MWh + 16MWh = 256MWh. Leader: 256MWh/574MWh = 44.6% of total
Energy Capacity by AES: 160MWh. Runer-up: 160MWh/574MWh = 27.9% of total
Energy Capacity by RES: 120MWh. Third place: 120MWH/574MWh = 20.9% of total
Energy Capacity by Enel: 38MWh. Fourth place: 38MWh/574MWh = 6.6% of total

upload_2017-4-22_22-15-11.png


 
I have a rough revenue forecast based on various hints from Tesla/Elon, I would like to know what you guys think about those numbers.

Spreadsheet: Tesla[/QUOTE/]

Thanks, Moe!

Would you mind elaborating about the locations and projected completion dates for the installations in rows 4 and 6 of your worksheet entitled "Tesla Energy Projects," since those rows appear to comprise 560 MWh of the total 805 MWh of your worksheet? Are those out-right sales to either Macquarie Capital or Advanced Microgrid Solutions so that Tesla recognizes all of the revenue when the installation is placed in service?
 
I'd love to be proven wrong. Really! However, I've yet to see sufficient evidence to convince me that a government shutdown can be prevented.

This is not proof, but an argument it might be ignored with no consequence. Article 4, Section 4 of the Constitution was considered when Ted Cruz shut down the government. See this from CNN:

Constitution and the debt: Can the president go it alone? - CNNPolitics.com

Sorry for repeat if someone has already made this reference.
 
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In the TE related news, SDG&E News Release dated April 19 indicates that company signed contracts for 83.5MW/334MWh worth of BES projects, all subject to the approval by California Public Utility Commission (CPUC). The time frame for getting these projects on line is Between December 2019 and 2021:
  • 40MW/160MWh - AES Energy - Facility to be owned and operated by SDG&E
  • 30MW/120MWh - Renewable Energy Systems (RES) Americas - Facility to be owned and operated by SDG&E
  • 9.5MW/38MWh - Enel Green Power North America - merchant BES facility
  • 4MW/16MWh - Advanced Microgrid Solutions (AMS) - merchant BES facility
This is third announcement of large scale deployment of BES systems within a month. Two other announcements:
  • 40MWh of BES by AMS for Wallmart
  • 50MW of BES by AMS, financed by CIT Group. Given the revenue streams (storage for solar, PPA by the SCE, grid services, including reserve capacity and voltage management) and total cost of the project ($200M) leads me to conclude that combined energy rating of these systems is at least 200MWh.
So here is the TE scorecard within the last 30 days (Utility scale projects):
Total Energy Capacity: 334MWh + 40MWh + 200MWh = 574MWh
Energy Capacity by Tesla: 200MWh + 40MWh + 16MWh = 256MWh. Leader: 256MWh/574MWh = 44.6% of total
Energy Capacity by AES: 160MWh. Runer-up: 160MWh/574MWh = 27.9% of total
Energy Capacity by RES: 120MWh. Third place: 120MWH/574MWh = 20.9% of total
Energy Capacity by Enel: 38MWh. Fourth place: 38MWh/574MWh = 6.6% of total
View attachment 224027
Methinks you are trying too hard, by comparing AES' "scorecard" state-wide with the other 3 competitors' transactions soley with the utility whose limited service territory is south of LA.

AES' deal with SDG&E is 10 times AMS' deal. And AES has an outright sale while AMS' smaller installation is a merchant facility. The other merchant facility for SDG&E by Enel is twice as large as AMS'. (Wasn't ENE a merchant generator bidding into CAL ISO's markets at the turn of the century?)

The CIT Group announcement is NOT installation(s), just a financing arrangement projected to possibly cover AMS'/Macquarie's "behind the meter" (i.e. not Utility scale) transactions over the next two years. Macquarie Capital, Advanced Microgrid Solutions and CIT Close Industry-First Battery Storage Project Financing You attribute 200 MWh of Tesla's 256 MWh to a financing arrangement which discredits your entire post about the "leader."
 
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2) Recent Model S price drop shows Elon is not kidding about accelerating the world's transition to sustainable energy to as close as he can get it to the speed of light. On a side note - I'm curious to see if BMW/Mercedes will try to match it.

The Model S has had a base price ~$70k in the US for the last four years. Today it stands at $69.5k. There is no material price drop. There is no adjustment for inflation and there is increased content. Sometimes the base price increases as a previously base spec model gets eliminated. Then it falls back to ~$70k like it happened just recently. The looming elimination of the $7500 Federal credit means an effective price bump in Tesla's largest market.

Tesla is approaching range, equipment, and interior quality parity with BMW and MB. They have not surpassed the Germans. Yet.



5) I would bring Powerwall unit projections closer to Model 3/Y units as most people who buy either of those cars will likely buy at least one and maybe two Powerwall(s), but I don't know how Tesla will meet this demand. I guess this explains the need to build three more Gigafactories.

I know of 5 people who have a Model 3 reservation. None have a powerwall reservation. One is considering Tesla solar panels/powerwall but lives in Fort Wayne Indiana and is skeptical the numbers will pencil out. I am 99% sure there will be less units of powerwall sold than units of Model 3/Y.
 
Adam Jonas discusses Tesla's valuation and disruption. In a nutshell, he compares Elon Musk to the likes of Henry Ford, Vanderbilt, etc. legendary businessmen who went onto disrupt an entire industry. A must watch:

A Tesla bull makes his case: 'We think it's real .... it's a good car. That's not a fluke'

AJ also thinks Tesla will launch M3 "ontime" but is skeptical of Tesla's ability to scale. This is fair, he'll need to change his valuation again very soon.
 
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Methinks you are trying too hard, by comparing AES' "scorecard" state-wide with the other 3 competitors' transactions soley with the utility whose limited service territory is south of LA.

I included utility scale announcements for the past 30 days. If you can contribute additional data, including other projects by AES, please do so and I will update the info.

AES' deal with SDG&E is 10 times AMS' deal. And AES has an outright sale while AMS' smaller installation is a merchant facility. The other merchant facility for SDG&E by Enel is twice as large as AMS'. (Wasn't ENE a merchant generator bidding into CAL ISO's markets at the turn of the century?)

This is TMC, and we are intested to know how Tesla is doing against others. All of this manipulative acrobatics are irrelevant. It does not matter who finances AMS projects as long as it is not Tesla. What matters is that Tesla has a backlog of Utility scale projects that grew by at least 256MWh in the last 30 days, more that any others

The CIT Group announcement is NOT installation(s), just a financing arrangement projected to possibly cover AMS'/Macquarie's "behind the meter" (i.e. not Utility scale) transactions over the next two years. Macquarie Capital, Advanced Microgrid Solutions and CIT Close Industry-First Battery Storage Project Financing

The announcement is about financing of specific future installations.

The financing, led by CIT, backs a 50MW fleet of behind-the-meter, battery storage systems located in certain grid-constrained pockets of the West Los Angeles Basin service territory of Southern California Edison (“SCE”) that Macquarie Capital acquired from Advanced Microgrid Solutions (“AMS”) in August 2016. Since the acquisition, Macquarie and AMS have been jointly developing and constructing the portfolio, which is expected to come online in phases over the next 12-24 months.

Behind or in front of the meter is irrelevant. Utility scale refers to size and ability of the BES to provide grid services. All of the projects listed in my post are Utility scale.
 
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Is it just me or is Mercedes trying a bit too hard with their new S-class unveiling in China?


After watching how Tesla easily got hundreds of thousands of pre-orders for the M3 with little effort, everyone else's unveiling will look less exciting. This is vintage Mercedes unveil, basically boring stuff. The Benz use to sell itself, now it'll need twice as much persuasion with Tesla being the new "it" car.

I let a friend test drive my MS yesterday. He's a hardcore German car freak, his expression while accelerating in the S was "are you kidding me? This is like an airplane.. how much is the M3 again?"
 
This is not proof, but an argument it might be ignored with no consequence. Article 4, Section 4 of the Constitution was considered when Ted Cruz shut down the government. See this from CNN:

Constitution and the debt: Can the president go it alone? - CNNPolitics.com

Sorry for repeat if someone has already made this reference.

If Trump used this approach, the cost for the US to issue new debt would skyrocket, and it would be disastrous for the US economy. Also, a downgrade would almost certainly follow.
 
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