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2017 Investor Roundtable: TSLA Market Action

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As I outlined in my post (and before that for years) wait until 2018-2021 for all large car makers to release long-range EVs based on dedicated platforms (which means many cars coming for each car maker).

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PS: Before someone shouts "missing SC network" that will also be taken care of with 450+ stations in just the first cycle over the next 30 months:

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Mostly I agree with you:
Among the manufacturers promising many BEV's each:
BMW- although with famously public internal debates they're proceeding with everything from a Rolls-Royce to Mini. How many will hit the market in 2020 MY is another question but that is just ramped timing, not intent;
VW Group- everything from Bentley to something equivalent to UP! They're certainly showing firm plans but there's a lot of question bout their potential success;
Mercedes-Benz- everything from Maybach to the forthcoming all-electric Smart offerings. Their resolve is pretty firm, and included OTR Trucks too, probably one or more of their US brands and certainly European;
Nissan/Renault- at the moment they have the broadest range of offerings, thanks to Renault small urban vehicles. We have ideas but no firm proof of long range upscale products nor long range commercial vehicles;
Hyundai- hedging their bets but certainly will offer multiple power options in several vehicle lines including of course Ioniq;
Cummins: Say they have a LR Battery-power offering coming. No details, but they know they must!;
FCA- 'over my dead body' Marchionne has declared the future is BEV, from Ferrari to Mobi. We have zero clues how they'll do it. With Brazil their largest worldwide market, well above Italy, they will electrify there. As for Chrysler apart from the Pacifica we really have little clear outlook. The next six months will certainly yield much clearer outlook, but the major short term emphasis will certainly be to save Europe sales.
PSA- Just as clear as FCA. Stuck with aging Opel plus their own we can anticipate some entertaining partnerships.
Other "Europeans"- Both JLR and Volvo are moving to make multiple BEV offerings, with scant firm details but lots of promise. Use of quotes because they are respectively Tata (Indian) and Geely (Chinese)

The US and other Japanese builders are less clear about their early plans except for GM extending Bolt architecture to other brands and Toyota implying that they're going to be aggressive with BEV's.

As we all know there are two huge impediments, 1. Battery supply and 2. charging infrastructure. Those two are now the major ones because the technical progress is rapid enough to remove deal-breakers in terms of energy efficiency and battery cost. All indications are that battery supply will be is fair supply by 2020. Charging infrastrure is rapidly improving in most parts of the industrial world but much of the seeming availability is limited by inadequate chargers per location and the everlasting standards/billing issues. My personal view is that we'll see very rapid charging system development and deployment almost everywhere during the next decade. By 2025 We'll be able to BEV from Ushuaia-Barrow and Paris-Peking although political risk will make such trips rarely taken.

Thinking globally there is scant BEV or charging in several major auto markets: Southern Cone- in aggregate about the seventh largest global market- Basically zero today; Middle East- tiny bits such as Jordan and UAE as well as coming in Turkey. Almost nothing elsewhere and non-testa. Iran,Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Oman, Israel, Kuwait are already robust auto markets, with Iraq and Syria questions too, despite obvious issues. Five years from now all those will be big issues.
Eastern Europe- high demand, decent environments, mostly, but minimal BEV charging infrastructure except for Tesla being committed to supporting tourist travel.

As a note there are three global manufacturers who are in a horrible position: FCA, PSA and Ford. What happens with those? In the next class is GM, magically ahead of the others because of Volt/Bolt and some history, but, little serious market commitment given their size.

I haven't mentioned the Chinese. It is no accident that MB, BMW, Tesla and others are keenly attentive to China market potential for both supplies and sales. GM ought to be well-positioned but... BYD will be a global force, and they have historically had a commercial vehicle focus and have cleverly provided a true-key charging and maintenance offering in almost every market they enter. Their commercial marketing approach is now being emulated by Tesla and MB are obviously attentive. Tesla semi and other forthcoming commercial vehicles will almost certainly be offered in this way.

I recognize that this little polemic may be seen as premature, and it is certainly superficial. However, with Model 3 and the onslaught of major product offerings the absolute need to tackle infrastructure in all these places and more is unquestionable.

Our TSLA investment outlook should begin to consider these and other issues now. The revolution is happening. BEV's are now where the entire motor vehicle market was around 1910. Will Tesla be Ford or will it be Baker?
 
Mostly I agree with you:
Among the manufacturers promising many BEV's each:
BMW- although with famously public internal debates they're proceeding with everything from a Rolls-Royce to Mini. How many will hit the market in 2020 MY is another question but that is just ramped timing, not intent;
VW Group- everything from Bentley to something equivalent to UP! They're certainly showing firm plans but there's a lot of question bout their potential success;
Mercedes-Benz- everything from Maybach to the forthcoming all-electric Smart offerings. Their resolve is pretty firm, and included OTR Trucks too, probably one or more of their US brands and certainly European;
Nissan/Renault- at the moment they have the broadest range of offerings, thanks to Renault small urban vehicles. We have ideas but no firm proof of long range upscale products nor long range commercial vehicles;
Hyundai- hedging their bets but certainly will offer multiple power options in several vehicle lines including of course Ioniq;
Cummins: Say they have a LR Battery-power offering coming. No details, but they know they must!;
FCA- 'over my dead body' Marchionne has declared the future is BEV, from Ferrari to Mobi. We have zero clues how they'll do it. With Brazil their largest worldwide market, well above Italy, they will electrify there. As for Chrysler apart from the Pacifica we really have little clear outlook. The next six months will certainly yield much clearer outlook, but the major short term emphasis will certainly be to save Europe sales.
PSA- Just as clear as FCA. Stuck with aging Opel plus their own we can anticipate some entertaining partnerships.
Other "Europeans"- Both JLR and Volvo are moving to make multiple BEV offerings, with scant firm details but lots of promise. Use of quotes because they are respectively Tata (Indian) and Geely (Chinese)

The US and other Japanese builders are less clear about their early plans except for GM extending Bolt architecture to other brands and Toyota implying that they're going to be aggressive with BEV's.

As we all know there are two huge impediments, 1. Battery supply and 2. charging infrastructure. Those two are now the major ones because the technical progress is rapid enough to remove deal-breakers in terms of energy efficiency and battery cost. All indications are that battery supply will be is fair supply by 2020. Charging infrastrure is rapidly improving in most parts of the industrial world but much of the seeming availability is limited by inadequate chargers per location and the everlasting standards/billing issues. My personal view is that we'll see very rapid charging system development and deployment almost everywhere during the next decade. By 2025 We'll be able to BEV from Ushuaia-Barrow and Paris-Peking although political risk will make such trips rarely taken.

Thinking globally there is scant BEV or charging in several major auto markets: Southern Cone- in aggregate about the seventh largest global market- Basically zero today; Middle East- tiny bits such as Jordan and UAE as well as coming in Turkey. Almost nothing elsewhere and non-Tesla. Iran,Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Oman, Israel, Kuwait are already robust auto markets, with Iraq and Syria questions too, despite obvious issues. Five years from now all those will be big issues.
Eastern Europe- high demand, decent environments, mostly, but minimal BEV charging infrastructure except for Tesla being committed to supporting tourist travel.

As a note there are three global manufacturers who are in a horrible position: FCA, PSA and Ford. What happens with those? In the next class is GM, magically ahead of the others because of Volt/Bolt and some history, but, little serious market commitment given their size.

I haven't mentioned the Chinese. It is no accident that MB, BMW, Tesla and others are keenly attentive to China market potential for both supplies and sales. GM ought to be well-positioned but... BYD will be a global force, and they have historically had a commercial vehicle focus and have cleverly provided a true-key charging and maintenance offering in almost every market they enter. Their commercial marketing approach is now being emulated by Tesla and MB are obviously attentive. Tesla semi and other forthcoming commercial vehicles will almost certainly be offered in this way.

I recognize that this little polemic may be seen as premature, and it is certainly superficial. However, with Model 3 and the onslaught of major product offerings the absolute need to tackle infrastructure in all these places and more is unquestionable.

Our TSLA investment outlook should begin to consider these and other issues now. The revolution is happening. BEV's are now where the entire motor vehicle market was around 1910. Will Tesla be Ford or will it be Baker?
Seems to me that those guys can't send battery sample....
 
2018-2020 is when these long-range cars start to arrive (first iterations, Bolt, Leaf 2, Audi SUV, Jaguar SUV, Mercedes EQ etc.).
2020-2025 is when the market will be flooded with long-range EVs based on dedicated BEV platforms.
I haven't changed my forecast.

Same old, same old..... You already know what I am going to say, but anyway... Just in case you make any new reader here to seriously consider your point..

You mention 2020 as earliest. At that point in time :

- to be able to somehow slow Tesla's growth and its very significant positive cash flow & profitability, competition will need to deliver several 100.000's of BEV's per year. Where will the battery cells come from for such volumes ?

..... and in case the battery volume should become available.... :
(would be GREAT, but unfortunately I do not see any big enough production factory building even being started)

- Demand for BEV's (and energy storage) will grow MUCH faster than the cars can be produced by Tesla PLUS all others combined.

Not to mention that Tesla has proven to out-innovate everybody by a large factor. In 2020 Tesla will be ahead even further with the Semi, the Model-Y, a Truck, Roadster-V2 and probably some never yet mentioned products like Cabrio-Model-3, Model-S-V2, Model-X-V2........
 
Not to mention that Tesla has proven to out-innovate everybody by a large factor. In 2020 Tesla will be ahead even further with the Semi, the Model-Y, a Truck, Roadster-V2 and probably some never yet mentioned products like Cabrio-Model-3, Model-S-V2, Model-X-V2........

Out-innovate? Based on what by 2020-2025 when everybody will be offering long-range EVs and (charging) infrastructure will be there in all important car markets?

Same old, same old...

This long list of Tesla "projects" shows a severe lack of focus (especially the upcoming truck and the huge bailout of SCTY...just my opinion).
 
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That's exactly what I was thinking. and oooOOooo, 450 chargers that charge vehicles that top out at 50kW? Talk about underwhelming. Not only that, I highly doubt the Leaf will get anything beyond the 40kWh battery in 2018. It's obvious Nissan is struggling, the Leaf 2 is not a complete redesign but merely a refresh in the same package. (Larger capacity battery, 30kW larger motor, and exterior styling changes.) We should bookmark his post and taunt him with it a year from now.
This is the one EV/company I am disappointed in when it comes to EV progress. I test drove the LEAF in 2011 and where are they today with it......a 40kWh battery and a slight redesign. Talk about a let down......
 
Out-innovate? Based on what by 2020-2025 when everybody will be offering long-range EVs and (charging) infrastructure will be there in all important car markets?

Same old, same old...

This long list of Tesla "projects" shows a severe lack of focus (especially the upcoming truck and the huge bailout of SCTY...just my opinion).
What you call lack of focus I see as a smart strategic move to accomplish an aggressive but very important mission (statement).
 
Out-innovate? Based on what by 2020-2025 when everybody will be offering long-range EVs and (charging) infrastructure will be there in all important car markets?

Same old, same old...

This long list of Tesla "projects" shows a severe lack of focus (especially the upcoming truck and the huge bailout of SCTY...just my opinion).
Wasn't something similar said about Apple when they came out with the iphone? First that it would fail and then when it was embraced that there would be a flood of competitors soon, taking their market share, etc....Apple did ok in the following years even though there was eventually some competition. Their gross margins remained intact because they created great products and remained ahead of the competition in a number of ways. This is where Tesla is headed. There is no cause for alarm about Tesla's future. There is cause for alarm for many existing companies in the auto industry. Who are the Blackberries out there???
 
Bond price talk is at 5.25%

Even that is being considered as pretty aggressive pricing for the given rating. However, it seems like all but done at that price.
Given the high yield market backed up this week as part of the risk off trade, I think this sounds about right and would agree that this is somewhat aggressive given Tesla's rating.

Have you heard any guesstimate as to when it will be priced? The sooner the better in these volatile markets.

surfside
 
Since this is the thread where we discuss the actual movement of the actual stock, well, TSLA is generally on an upswing right now as anticipation for the semi builds, and reviews of the Model 3 come out. Only thing hurting the stock is macro factors, like the war of the loudmouths going on between Washington DC and Pyongyang. Happy to see it at $365 right now, only $20 below ATH.

Now, to the people describing the horrible future that Tesla faces -

1) How did the rest of the industry allow Tesla to become the industry leader? The Model S was shown in 2009 and was on sale in 2012... and five years after deliveries began, Tesla is still eating the lunch of the major manufacturers. Check this out from today - Mercedes-Benz gets reality check from Tesla owners after asking fans if they want electric cars

2) Tesla has the biggest factory, and is the world's largest consumer of batteries. I find it odd that the company with the biggest factory is under some sort of threat from other manufacturers that all have smaller factories right now.

3) The rest of the industry is struggling to get to where Tesla is now. Audi's R8 E-Tron is the poster child for this. Each time they tried to put it out, they realised it was either *sugar*, or a money-loser. Tesla has the fastest acceleration and longest range. Their mission is not to have the most luxurious interiors, or the best handling on the track - it's to replace ICE road cars, and buyers are still lining up for their product. We just found out that Nissan, who has arguably had the best chance at putting out a car with 200+ miles of range, is, after 5 years' chance to develop a custom platform, going to put out a car with like 170 miles of range that still looks like an econo-bucket. The Chevy Bolt EV is built for Chevy by LG who will undoubtedly be learning from their tech and introducing it to others.

4) Where is Tesla going to be in 2020? Looking back, 2014 is when they introduced the P85D with 3.2-sec 0-60, incredible traction and extra range due to dual motors, and first Autopilot hardware. 3 years from now it's reasonable to expect the Model 3 to be the IBM of electric cars, self-driving Tesla Network to be operational and making money for owners, Model Y to be recently out, semi truck to be gaining hold in the marketplace, as well as an electric pickup truck probably being readied for launch - size unknown but expected to be popular. Multiple battery factories and/or assembly facilities under construction. And Tesla continuing to thrive without paying for any advertising.

So, Tesla has "first mover advantage." There's nothing wrong with that! Standard Oil enjoyed it for decades. (LOL) IBM enjoyed it for decades. Netflix confounds the critics by staying in front and continually growing despite their product ostensibly being a commodity that anyone can provide. Amazon continue to grow and rivals have had years to emulate, but still can't crack it. Apple put some cool technologies together into the same device and created the modern smartphone. Each one of these companies created their market and were able to dominate it. You're saying that, sure, Tesla created the electric car market, but they can't and won't continue to dominate it. I say you're not providing compelling evidence they won't continue to dominate. Someone else has to catch up and pass them by - no small feat. There is continual over-respect for conventional auto manufacturers. They're obsessed with chasing the money and thinking in the short term. Look what happened in mid-2008 when high gas prices caught them off-guard... there weren't enough small cars on the market, everyone was producing gas-guzzling SUVs. They're still in love with ICE vehicles and their lucrative maintenance, and spending billions on advertising and marketing to sell crappy cars. Do you really think they have the brains and drive to lead the market and climb past Tesla, whose publicised position is to always take the long-term, first-principles approach?
 
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Your question proves you haven't read my link for one minute.*

I wrote about 150kW+ (even 350kW+ for CCS) CCS and Chademo stations for highway charging stations - coupled with 50kW+ for urban/destination areas. It's all in the link....
Your response proves you haven't read my post for one minute.

I said "chargers that that charge VEHICLES that top out at 50kW." It doesn't matter if the chargers are 150kW if the vehicles can only handle 50kW.
 
Since this is the thread where we discuss the actual movement of the actual stock, well, TSLA is generally on an upswing right now as anticipation for the semi builds, and reviews of the Model 3 come out. Only thing hurting the stock is macro factors, like the war of the loudmouths going on between Washington DC and Pyongyang. Happy to see it at $365 right now, only $20 below ATH.
Sorry for the OT discussion. I'll terminate my discussions with tftl. I might as well add to the iList while I'm at it.
 
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