2018 Leaf vs Model 3

[googlepeakoil]

Leaf Gen 2 will definitely give M3 some competition. There will be other cars coming soon too to do the same. I think Tesla and the investors know that already. Leaf is less than 20k (after incentives). 150 mile range (perfect for daily commuter, soccer moms), autopilot, fun to drive. I think it checks off many boxes. Not bad if you lease is for less than $300/month and leave your luxury car in the garage for the weekend.

remember - many people (I count myself as one) will stretch their wallet to get their Tesla or electric car.
When they checked what previous owners owned before Tesla's - they found they weren't all high-end cars (top of range Jags, Mercedes) but Prius and other efficient cars - people like the efficiency of electric cars.
I have a model 3 reservation. In the UK they wont deliver til 2019. Elon told me if i want 2 screens to get a S or X. Well, there's 2 screens on a Leaf, driver cluster and its a hatchback - and they're making it available in the UK in Jan/Feb 2018... am very tempted... if I buy a Leaf then it's a lot more likely i won't be buying my model 3 (2 new cars in 18-24 months). I have one reserved since day 1.
I have £20-40k to spend on my next car and i told myself it'd be electric. Some might think it silly - but all electric cars compete to an extent with all other electric cars.

 

[googlepeakoil]

One other good thing the Leaf has is V2G technology:
“LEAF to Home” Residential Power System
The ability to run your house off your car. As Nissan doesn't have a Powerwall 2 they're not Osbourning their own product by allowing your car to help balance out the grid...
"At the heart of LEAF to Home is a EV Power Supply System developed by Nichicon. The large suitcase-sized unit is a two-way charger capable of both fully charging a LEAF in just four hours (half the time of an ordinary charger) and also supplying a home’s electricity distribution panel from a LEAF’s high-capacity batteries."
For us, the consumer competition is a good thing.
Nissan has several technologies in the Leaf (Leaf 2) ahead of Tesla.
- V2G (as above)
- one pedal driving (the Leaf2 can do a hillstop and start with just the accelerator - not just a full stop)
- The Nissan Leaf (since 2012) have something called an "air source heat pump". "heat pumps" can achieve 300-450% efficiency. It's not breaking the laws of thermodynamics - it works by taking the little heat out of the outside air. They're common in Norway for house heating (cheap electricity - cold winters). I've also seen heat pumps for swimming pools advertised as 3kW in, 7-10kW out (dependent on ambient temperature). I'm sure in the Leaf you can put 0.5kW in and get 1.5kW out in terms of heat energy. Like running a fridge in reverse.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I believe the Powerwalls have a different purpose right now. PG&E is covering a lot of the costs in hopes of daily peak shaving. But for emergency back up, a manual standby interlock switch , like the one shown below, should be enough. An extension cord to the fridge and a few lights could also work for many. You unplug the refrigerator from the wall outlet and plug that into the extension cord.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=generator+standby+power+interlock&rh=i:aps,k:generator+standby+power+interlock

View attachment 246702

Best of all, this is a portable power pack. You go camping in the forest or partying on the beach, the clean and quiet power is there, ready to tap into. See this 1.8 kWh powerpack. Costs over $1000 and weighs 109 lbs! What should be the value of the V2H if someone can tap into ~40 kWh, or upto 100 kWh for Teslas?
But I am not at all surprised by you bashing this feature. It's simply because Teslas don't have it
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DAMSCW2/

View attachment 246703



Hajimemashite @hiroshiy san! Dojo Yoroshiku
Thanks for the info from Nissan's home country. I suspected there is something about the standard that they are putting this in cars for Japan. Toyota also talked about Mirai V2H powering homes for 7 days. But when I went to test drive the Mirai here, there was no power outlet I had a need for exactly this situation in my "manager's office" in a rental property. It gets real hot in the afternoon during summer. Even the quietest generator @56-65 dB would be too noisy for my use. Tried A/C converter to tap from my ICE car's battery, then bought a small battery pack that could power a small table fan for ~45 mins. Finally ended up digging a trench to install wiring from one of the tenants. Installed a small sub meter that still shows 2 kWh after 2 months V2H would be ideal for these occasional power needs.

PS: There will always be a small percent of abusers in any system. Nothing new here about charge theft. Good companies still build the systems so 99% of people can enjoy them, while absorbing the costs from the 1% abusers or fixing it. They don't get rid of the system. V2H is not a major cause of charge theft.

I think you are having a misunderstanding. The car will not have an inverter onboard, but rather will output DC through the CHAdeMO port and you would need to a install box that costs about $4000-5000 (installation not included, costs about $3000-4000) to convert that to power that your house can use.

Port in Mirai:

Toyota Mirai Can Serve As Emergency Power Supply Using CHAdeMO
Green Car Congress: Nissan to launch the “LEAF to Home” V2H power supply system with Nichicon “EV Power Station” in June

 

[SageBrush]

I'm sure in the Leaf you can put 0.5kW in and get 1.5kW out in terms of heat energy. Like running a fridge in reverse.

Don't be so sure. The COP is very temperature dependent.

 

[mmd]

I think you are having a misunderstanding. The car will not have an inverter onboard, but rather will output DC through the CHAdeMO port and you would need to a install box that costs about $4000-5000 (installation not included, costs about $3000-4000) to convert that to power that your house can use.

Port in Mirai:

Toyota Mirai Can Serve As Emergency Power Supply Using CHAdeMO
Green Car Congress: Nissan to launch the “LEAF to Home” V2H power supply system with Nichicon “EV Power Station” in June

That's a very old article though. I test drove the Mirai ~4 months ago, and rep told me there is no power take out, suggested a generator for my issue. Only outlet was inside the car for portable electronics. I even searched the owner's manual; but nothing. May be the Japanese version has it. In hindsight, it saved me some money as I didn't need to lease it
2017 Toyota Mirai Owners Manual and Warranty - Toyota Owners

But speaking of the usefulness of V2H:
Nearly 4.5 million without power in Florida

Nearly 4.5 million homes and businesses across Florida have lost power as Hurricane Irma moves over the state.
Utility officials say it will take weeks to restore electricity to everyone. Farther north, more than 100,000 are in the dark in Georgia.

Even if the inverter is $4k-$5k, as you say (I have no idea), it is not too bad since it can access the whole 40 kwh/100kwh of energy from whatever battery pack size the car has.
Still, a simple generator may be the solution for these prolonged power cuts. I wonder how the superchargers and EV drivers are doing in Florida during this long power cut.

 

[Garlan Garner]

The Leaf is looking snazzy these days.

If only it was a good EV.

 

[Sportstick]

The Leaf is looking snazzy these days.

If only it was a good EV.

Just to clarify your meaning of "snazzy"....to you, this looks good?

 

[Hitman007]

Just to clarify your meaning of "snazzy"....to you, this looks good?

I dont understand your comment. It IS a very good EV.

 

[Sportstick]

I dont understand your comment. It IS a very good EV.

What is the confusing part...did you look at the photo? I had slot cars which looked less like a child's toy. I have no evaluation of the EV technology/capability/performance.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Just to clarify your meaning of "snazzy"....to you, this looks good?

I mean.....it looks "un-Leaf" like.
Maybe you disagree......that's fine.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I dont understand your comment. It IS a very good EV.

I suppose very good is speculative. I like to listen to reviews. The podcast below covers the leaf experience in the first 20 minutes.

73 – Leaf Anxiety and Model 3 Details

 

[Sportstick]

I mean.....it looks "un-Leaf" like.

So does this....also "snazzy" to you?

 

[Garlan Garner]

What is the confusing part...did you look at the photo? I had slot cars which looked less like a child's toy. I have no evaluation of the EV technology/capability/performance.

No....I looked at this photo.

 

[Garlan Garner]

So does this....also "snazzy" to you?
View attachment 251513

I just said.....snazzy to me is compared to what it used to look like.

BTW.....that car is ugly. And any car with wood on the side. IMnHO

 

[jbcarioca]

I don't see there being a major competition between Leaf and Model 3, but do see Bolt suffering from Leaf. The original Leaf was a fine EV; the new one is certainly a major advance. I am happy there is finally choice, so I wish Bolt, leaf and Model 3 well. For me Bolt would never be on my short list, but the new Leaf could work superbly as a city and suburban car. I think the new Leaf will be even more successful that was the original. Would I consider a Leaf vs a Model 3 for Brazil? Sure, I'll end out with whichever gets here first probably, although I'd much prefer the Model 3. OTOH, in the US I'll end out with a PxxD Model 3 if it is good enough, otherwise I'll end out with another S.

 

[internalaudit]

Fact or Fiction?


This article is interesting and would be wonderful it comes to fruition.
Why Nissan Has A Trick Up Its Sleeve With The New LEAF

And now the juiciest part…
Nissan’s trick up its sleeve can be explained like this:

“The best selling car in each segment is not the best car, but the best value for the money.”

I think it is undisputed that the best EV for the city is the BMW i3 and the best long-journey EV is the Tesla Model S, yet they are both being outsold by the Renault Zoe (in Europe, where the Zoe is available). A more humble offer, but with a much more reasonable price, the Zoe is Europe’s top selling electric car.

And between the i3 and Model S extremes, and with the ability to go in and out of the city for the occasional long trip, we have several players — Hyundai Ioniq, VW e-Golf, Chevrolet Bolt … and the 2018 Nissan LEAF. These models are all basically going for the same customers. But…

After the first LEAF sales peak (first 4 to 6 months of 2018), Nissan will start to play its cards. Because the new car is based on an old platform, Nissan will have plenty of space to make discounts, undercutting the competition even further, maybe going into the mid-$20,000 arena. And this could last until…

Late 2018, when the new long-range version shows up (can LG Chem, the new supplier, cram 60 kWh into the old platform?). That can add the “wow” factor that the 40 kWh version misses, as the larger battery will allow Bolt/Tesla range levels (225–245 miles EPA). Additionally, the TMS that comes with LG technology will not only increase consumer confidence, but finally open the door to those much anticipated 150 kW fast chargers.

Now, imagine in December 2018 a 60 kWh LEAF with 230 miles of range and 150 kW-rated charging capability for … (drums rolling) … $36,000!

Tasty, isn’t it?

It has been Nissan’s tradition to introduce longer-range versions at the price of the previous most expensive version, so expect the same to happen here.

But Nissan’s Royal Flush comes next, after all of this. In order to give some breathing space for the “old” 40 kWh version, the Japanese carmaker will drop prices of this older version even further, maybe even into the low $20,000 price class (before incentives), becoming then the first legacy OEM to reach electric price parity with ICE models in this segment.

If this does happen — and considering the low development costs of the 2018 LEAF, there is no reasonable reason to expect otherwise — 2019 will be an even better sales year than 2018, because on the one hand there’s the 60 kWh version going for higher-level customers, and on the other, value for money (bargain) hunters jumping all over the cheap 40 kWh LEAF.

As for sales themselves, expect this new v1.3 LEAF to reach over 100,000 units next year (maybe 150,000?), losing only to the Model 3 in the 2018 Best Seller competition. Then, 2019 will build on that performance, maybe with a 20% increase YoY, ending its career with growing sales (as the current one is doing).

In Short:

Although not as flashy as the Tesla Model 3, the new Nissan LEAF will have the advantage of being cheaper and a true mass market car.

The LEAF will be the first legacy OEM model to reach price parity with its gas/diesel counterparts — if not in late 2018, certainly in 2019.

 

[EpiKAC]

So does this....also "snazzy" to you?
View attachment 251513

Hey now, back off!! The Aztec is a classic! The original crossover!!!

 

[voip-ninja]

Fact or Fiction?


This article is interesting and would be wonderful it comes to fruition.
Why Nissan Has A Trick Up Its Sleeve With The New LEAF

And now the juiciest part…
Nissan’s trick up its sleeve can be explained like this:

“The best selling car in each segment is not the best car, but the best value for the money.”

I think it is undisputed that the best EV for the city is the BMW i3 and the best long-journey EV is the Tesla Model S, yet they are both being outsold by the Renault Zoe (in Europe, where the Zoe is available). A more humble offer, but with a much more reasonable price, the Zoe is Europe’s top selling electric car.

And between the i3 and Model S extremes, and with the ability to go in and out of the city for the occasional long trip, we have several players — Hyundai Ioniq, VW e-Golf, Chevrolet Bolt … and the 2018 Nissan LEAF. These models are all basically going for the same customers. But…

After the first LEAF sales peak (first 4 to 6 months of 2018), Nissan will start to play its cards. Because the new car is based on an old platform, Nissan will have plenty of space to make discounts, undercutting the competition even further, maybe going into the mid-$20,000 arena. And this could last until…

Late 2018, when the new long-range version shows up (can LG Chem, the new supplier, cram 60 kWh into the old platform?). That can add the “wow” factor that the 40 kWh version misses, as the larger battery will allow Bolt/Tesla range levels (225–245 miles EPA). Additionally, the TMS that comes with LG technology will not only increase consumer confidence, but finally open the door to those much anticipated 150 kW fast chargers.

Now, imagine in December 2018 a 60 kWh LEAF with 230 miles of range and 150 kW-rated charging capability for … (drums rolling) … $36,000!

Tasty, isn’t it?

It has been Nissan’s tradition to introduce longer-range versions at the price of the previous most expensive version, so expect the same to happen here.

But Nissan’s Royal Flush comes next, after all of this. In order to give some breathing space for the “old” 40 kWh version, the Japanese carmaker will drop prices of this older version even further, maybe even into the low $20,000 price class (before incentives), becoming then the first legacy OEM to reach electric price parity with ICE models in this segment.

If this does happen — and considering the low development costs of the 2018 LEAF, there is no reasonable reason to expect otherwise — 2019 will be an even better sales year than 2018, because on the one hand there’s the 60 kWh version going for higher-level customers, and on the other, value for money (bargain) hunters jumping all over the cheap 40 kWh LEAF.

As for sales themselves, expect this new v1.3 LEAF to reach over 100,000 units next year (maybe 150,000?), losing only to the Model 3 in the 2018 Best Seller competition. Then, 2019 will build on that performance, maybe with a 20% increase YoY, ending its career with growing sales (as the current one is doing).

In Short:

Although not as flashy as the Tesla Model 3, the new Nissan LEAF will have the advantage of being cheaper and a true mass market car.

The LEAF will be the first legacy OEM model to reach price parity with its gas/diesel counterparts — if not in late 2018, certainly in 2019.

I don't consider a $35,000 230 mile Leaf "tasty" when compared to a similar ranged Tesla Model 3. Admittedly the Leaf will have more bells and whistles at the base level than the Model 3, but the Model 3 is a roomier car that is way more appealing to most buyers.

 

[run-the-joules]

Fact or Fiction?


This article is interesting and would be wonderful it comes to fruition.
Why Nissan Has A Trick Up Its Sleeve With The New LEAF

And now the juiciest part…
Nissan’s trick up its sleeve can be explained like this:

“The best selling car in each segment is not the best car, but the best value for the money.”

I think it is undisputed that the best EV for the city is the BMW i3 and the best long-journey EV is the Tesla Model S, yet they are both being outsold by the Renault Zoe (in Europe, where the Zoe is available). A more humble offer, but with a much more reasonable price, the Zoe is Europe’s top selling electric car.

And between the i3 and Model S extremes, and with the ability to go in and out of the city for the occasional long trip, we have several players — Hyundai Ioniq, VW e-Golf, Chevrolet Bolt … and the 2018 Nissan LEAF. These models are all basically going for the same customers. But…

After the first LEAF sales peak (first 4 to 6 months of 2018), Nissan will start to play its cards. Because the new car is based on an old platform, Nissan will have plenty of space to make discounts, undercutting the competition even further, maybe going into the mid-$20,000 arena. And this could last until…

Late 2018, when the new long-range version shows up (can LG Chem, the new supplier, cram 60 kWh into the old platform?). That can add the “wow” factor that the 40 kWh version misses, as the larger battery will allow Bolt/Tesla range levels (225–245 miles EPA). Additionally, the TMS that comes with LG technology will not only increase consumer confidence, but finally open the door to those much anticipated 150 kW fast chargers.

Now, imagine in December 2018 a 60 kWh LEAF with 230 miles of range and 150 kW-rated charging capability for … (drums rolling) … $36,000!

Tasty, isn’t it?

It has been Nissan’s tradition to introduce longer-range versions at the price of the previous most expensive version, so expect the same to happen here.

But Nissan’s Royal Flush comes next, after all of this. In order to give some breathing space for the “old” 40 kWh version, the Japanese carmaker will drop prices of this older version even further, maybe even into the low $20,000 price class (before incentives), becoming then the first legacy OEM to reach electric price parity with ICE models in this segment.

If this does happen — and considering the low development costs of the 2018 LEAF, there is no reasonable reason to expect otherwise — 2019 will be an even better sales year than 2018, because on the one hand there’s the 60 kWh version going for higher-level customers, and on the other, value for money (bargain) hunters jumping all over the cheap 40 kWh LEAF.

As for sales themselves, expect this new v1.3 LEAF to reach over 100,000 units next year (maybe 150,000?), losing only to the Model 3 in the 2018 Best Seller competition. Then, 2019 will build on that performance, maybe with a 20% increase YoY, ending its career with growing sales (as the current one is doing).

In Short:

Although not as flashy as the Tesla Model 3, the new Nissan LEAF will have the advantage of being cheaper and a true mass market car.

The LEAF will be the first legacy OEM model to reach price parity with its gas/diesel counterparts — if not in late 2018, certainly in 2019.

It could have a thousand miles of range and charge in 15 minutes, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a front wheel drive weirdo derp pod and I'll suck-start a shotgun before I give up and drive something like that.

 

[voip-ninja]

It could have a thousand miles of range and charge in 15 minutes, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a front wheel drive weirdo derp pod and I'll suck-start a shotgun before I give up and drive something like that.

Could you please tell us how you really feel?