2020.12.5.6: Traffic Light & Stop Sign Control

[Knightshade]

My confusion is this.


When I double click down on the stalk - I call that engaging FSD ( which is a list of features ).

That's not, at all, what that does though.

It's just engaging autosteer (and TACC, which is always engaged when autosteer is turned on).


What autosteer does can vary based on several factors:

Type of road you're on
What options you have in settings (bunch of different ones that impact behavior)
If you have purchased the FSD package of features.

Now....while FSD is engaged...

Again- no such thing.

You don't have "FSD engaged" you have autosteer engaged.


FSD also includes autopark- but the car won't do that just from double-down-pressing the stalk for example.

.I move the steering wheel. I have now disengaged FSD

No, you disengaged autosteer.

and entered "TACC" or "Autopilot" or "regular cruise control" .

TACC.

You can't get regular cruise on your car ever.

And you're not in AP at that point either.

Turning the wheel turns off autopilot/autosteer but leaves TACC on.

Autopilot.....I'm confused as what the term "Enables your car to steer" means. ( see below ).

Basic AP (the one that now comes with the car) it means the car remains in its lane without the driver steering. It also keeps follow distance/speed maintained because TACC is always on when autosteer is on.

If you also have purchased the FSD (or EAP) package it can do some additional things in this mode- but only if you have them turned on in settings... (for example on highways it might pass other cars IF you have that turned on... or it might take an exit to follow your route IF you have that turned on).

This is how Tesla's website defines it "this morning"
___________________________________________________
1. Autopilot Included with every purchase.

• Enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically for other vehicles and pedestrians within its lane.

2. Full Self-Driving Capability

• Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
• Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the highway.
• Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
• Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really.
• Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control: assisted stops at traffic controlled intersections.

Right- FSD is a package of specific features and capabilities.

It's not a single mode you "put the car in"


For example- Summon, autopark, and Navigate on Autopilot are all features listed in the FSD package- but all 3 require DIFFERENT driver actions to engage them, and very different conditions to use them.

There's not a single "mode" that just "does" all that.

 

[buttershrimp]

That's not, at all, what that does though.

It's just engaging autosteer (and TACC, which is always engaged when autosteer is turned on).


What autosteer does can vary based on several factors:

Type of road you're on
What options you have in settings (bunch of different ones that impact behavior)
If you have purchased the FSD package of features.







Again- no such thing.

You don't have "FSD engaged" you have autosteer engaged.


FSD also includes autopark- but the car won't do that just from double-down-pressing the stalk for example.




No, you disengaged autosteer.




TACC.

You can't get regular cruise on your car ever.

And you're not in AP at that point either.

Turning the wheel turns off autopilot/autosteer but leaves TACC on.





Basic AP (the one that now comes with the car) it means the car remains in its lane without the driver steering. It also keeps follow distance/speed maintained because TACC is always on when autosteer is on.

If you also have purchased the FSD (or EAP) package it can do some additional things in this mode- but only if you have them turned on in settings... (for example on highways it might pass other cars IF you have that turned on... or it might take an exit to follow your route IF you have that turned on).











Right- FSD is a package of specific features and capabilities.

It's not a single mode you "put the car in"


For example- Summon, autopark, and Navigate on Autopilot are all features listed in the FSD package- but all 3 require DIFFERENT driver actions to engage them, and very different conditions to use them.

There's not a single "mode" that just "does" all that.

It’s an interesting post that reminds me of the Seinfeld where the electrician calls the outlet, “the holes” .... all jokes aside, I think tesla would be well served to use more distinct colors on the IC when autosteer is engaged versus TACC.... sort of like rainbow road Easter egg, it would be nice to be able to tell in your peripheral vision, if you are truly engaged while in autosteer.... just thinking of ways to make things more clear and unambiguous to the novice

 

[wtwieder]

We can disagree, but we were, in fact, promised FULL self driving, eventually. We even saw a demonstration of a TM3 doing driving itself in an investors day meeting a while back.
Obviously that demo was rigged on a route that was simple enough that it worked. Still it showed the promise of better things to come. After that meeting I doubt anybody there invested expecting that full self driving would mean anything less than what they saw or experienced themselves in test drives.

I WAS an early purchaser of FSD when I got nothing for my money except for a promise. But for later purchasers, has Tesla ever described FSD as a just a set of ongoing feature improvements that wouldn't or never could achieve the goal of full self driving?
In fact doesn't the list of currently listed features for FSD, state "full self driving capability"? Isn't that essentially the same promise I got as an earlier FSD purchaser?

 

[Garlan Garner]

We can disagree, but we were, in fact, promised FULL self driving, eventually. We even saw a demonstration of a TM3 doing driving itself in an investors daymeeting a while back.
Obviously that demo was rigged on a route that was simple enough that it worked. Still it showed the promise of better things to come. After that meeting I doubt anybody there invested expecting that full self driving would mean anything less than what they saw or experienced themselves in test drives.

I WAS an early purchaser of FSD when I got nothing for my money except for a promise. But for later purchasers, has Tesla ever described FSD as a just a set of ongoing feature improvements that wouldn't or never could achieve the goal of full self driving? If so, forgive me, because I must have missed that.

Tesla never describes anything fully. That's the way its been from the beginning. And that's perfectly fine with me.

I would rather have features roll out than wait for the final product - years from now.

If we waited for the final product....this discussion wouldn't be taking place about 2020.12.6.

I like things the way they are. Keep the features rolling.

 

[Knightshade]

We can disagree, but we were, in fact, promised FULL self driving, eventually.

"we" who?

Because you can't show me a single thing in writing from when you purchased FSD that promised you that in a FEATURE sense rather than a "name we gave something" sense.


And especially not the post-Feb-2019 buyers who were promised only a very specific set of individual features.

(a list which was further downgraded in the last week or two)

We even saw a demonstration of a TM3 doing driving itself in an investors day meeting a while back.
Obviously that demo was rigged on a route that was simple enough that it worked. Still it showed the promise of better things to come. After that meeting I doubt anybody there invested expecting that full self driving would mean anything less than what they saw or experienced themselves in test drives.

I mean- you can "expect" anything you want.

They had a 2016 demo video that was similar- and that didn't come to pass either on that HW.

But what your actual purchase included is a different matter.

I WAS an early purchaser of FSD when I got nothing for my money except for a promise. But for later purchasers, has Tesla ever described FSD as a just a set of ongoing feature improvements that wouldn't or never could achieve the goal of full self driving? If so, forgive me, because I must have missed that.
Even in the list of features currently listed of FSD, it states "full self driving capability".

Uh...what?

On th eright is what everyone who purchased FSD from ~March 2019 to ~last week was promised.

On the left is todays set of promised features.

Both sets clearly define the specific features that Tesla considers "full self driving capability"


Your imagining they SECRETLY MEAN MORE notwithstanding.

The specific stuff on the list is the only stuff they are promised to get- and there's no guarantee it'll ever be better than level 2.

Now- Pre-Feb 2019 FSD buyers?

THEY were explicitly promised a lot more....but even then the promise only describes L4 driving, still not L5.

I don't expect they will get it- I really do not believe the HW is capable of providing what those folks (which include myself) were actually promised.

 

[wtwieder]

I don't wish to carry on an arguement with you, because I wish to learn. If I am understanding you correctly. the earlier L4 definition of Full Self Driving Capability has been changed to mean only the list of features that Tesla says you will get today with your FSD purchase along with city autosteer later this year. Is that all we should expect out of FSD?

 

[Knightshade]

I don't wish to carry on an arguement with you, because I wish to learn. If I am understanding you correctly. the earlier L4 definition of Full Self Driving Capability has been changed to mean only the list of features that Tesla says you will get today with your FSD purchase.

Correct.

instead of the original at-least-L4 promise you're now promised the specific things on the list (and not at any level better than 2)

Should we not expect anything more?

Define 'expect'

Tesla certainly would still love to figure out how to offer more.

But they have clearly, intentionally, in writing, scaled back what they actually promise you will get

And there has to be a reason they'd do that.

The most obvious and likely reason is they've figured out they don't know how to, or don't even know they CAN, ever actually deliver the higher levels originally promised with the existing HW (sensors too not just the swappable driving computer)


So if they ever finally conclude (or a lawsuit forces them to conclude) that it's just flat out impossible to deliver level 4 to anyone currently with a Tesla- they have to refund a much smaller # of people to whom they promised THAT, rather than the much larger # they only ever promised a much more specific list of L2 features they CAN deliver.



Now if they magically figure out how to offer higher level/more features? I expect they will. But you're not PROMISED that- and they're already multiple years behind numerous previous target dates, so I wouldn't hold my breath for it either.



Personally, when I bought FSD (back in the promising you at least L4 for $3000 days) my own personal expectation was the existing sensor suite was PROBABLY (though I continue to think a rear radar would've been useful) good enough to offer L3 specifically only on freeways (the places NoA works today)- but almost certainly not anything better.

And if I got THAT for my 3k, I'd be perfectly happy (since the vast majority of my driving is highway anyway)


Still waiting though.

 

[DrtyJrze]

I don't wish to carry on an arguement with you, because I wish to learn. If I am understanding you correctly. the earlier L4 definition of Full Self Driving Capability has been changed to mean only the list of features that Tesla says you will get today with your FSD purchase. Should we not expect anything more?

Haha, I agree with you. People get caught up in the weeds, arguing about pre/post dates, list, etc. Waste of time/energy. It’s not influencing any decision maker. We’re all just along for the ride.

I think Tesla transitioned from a scenario description to a bullet list of what is currently available and the next features that will be introduced In order to get to the ultimate goal in the descriptive FSD.

Personally, I don’t expect true FSD during the life of my current car, and I’m good with seeing incremental increase in its capability over time.

 

[wtwieder]

I am surprised that Full Self Driving Capability means less today or is less of a Tesla goal than what was defined in the earlier definition. I had EAP before I bought FSD. It would be hard to imagine buying FSD today, just to get my car to stop for me at stop signs and lights. I can more easily do that myself with regenerative braking and with less wear on my brakepads.

 

[JulienW]

My confusion is this.


When I double click down on the stalk - I call that engaging FSD ( which is a list of features ).


Now....while FSD is engaged....I move the steering wheel. I have now disengaged FSD and entered "TACC" or "Autopilot" or "regular cruise control" . This mode is no longer steering for me or doing things listed on Tesla's website as FSD.

Autopilot.....I'm confused as what the term "Enables your car to steer" means. ( see below )....

You engage Autosteer. Again there is no FSD mode and you don't need FSD to have Autosteer.

1 push down for TACC - 2 pushes down for Autosteer.

TACC+Autosteer=AutoPilot

FSD is any features in addition to AutoPilot:

• Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
• Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the highway.
• Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
• Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really.
• Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control: assisted stops at traffic controlled intersections.

Page 93 manual.

 

[Garlan Garner]

You engage Autosteer. Again there is no FSD mode and you don't need FSD to have Autosteer.

1 push down for TACC - 2 pushes down for Autosteer.

TACC+Autosteer=AutoPilot

FSD is any features in addition to AutoPilot:

• Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
• Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the highway.
• Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
• Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really.
• Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control: assisted stops at traffic controlled intersections.

Page 93 manual.




View attachment 537463

So.....how are people posting that the car is steering itself using TACC?

 

[MarcG]

You engage Autosteer. Again there is no FSD mode and you don't need FSD to have Autosteer.

1 push down for TACC - 2 pushes down for Autosteer.

TACC+Autosteer=AutoPilot

FSD is any features in addition to AutoPilot:

• Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
• Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the highway.
• Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
• Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really.
• Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control: assisted stops at traffic controlled intersections.

Page 93 manual.




View attachment 537463

Speaking of the manual, does anyone have access to the 2020.12.6 version? The one I can download in my account is from 2020.4.

 

[JulienW]

So.....how are people posting that the car is steering itself using TACC?

They aren't. TACC is Traffic Aware Cruse Control. It is Cruse Control that will speed up and slow with traffic. You must steer.

 

[whatthe2]

Do you have FSD? If so, do you have stop sign/light turned on?

Yes, FSD with HW3 and stop/light turned on. Been very happy with how it has been performing.

 

[Garlan Garner]

They aren't. TACC is Traffic Aware Cruse Control. It is Cruse Control that will speed up and slow with traffic. You must steer.

I agree, but did you see the description of Autopilot on Tesla's website?

What is the steering component of Autopilot?

 

[JulienW]

I agree, but did you see the description of Autopilot on Tesla's website?

What is the steering component of Autopilot?

I already posted this in post #470 and you even quoted it.


TACC+Autosteer=Autopilot

So the answer is Autosteer. To use Autosteer you must also use TACC (it cuts on with the first push) and the 2 working together are known as Autopilot.

EDIT: Also here is from Tesla.com:
Autopilot

 

[Garlan Garner]

I already posted this in post #470 and you even quoted it.


TACC+Autosteer=Autopilot

So the answer is Autosteer. To use Autosteer you must also use TACC (it cuts on with the first push) and the 2 working together are known as Autopilot.

Wait....Wait.

again.... If I'm using what I call FSD ( single blue line down the center of the lane ) features in my car and then I move the steering wheel and FSD disengages ( double blue lines - shows lines on either side of my lane ) then I'm in Autopilot/TACC. At that point I have to steer but I don't have to use the brake or accelerator. The car no longer steers. I have to steer.

Right?

 

[Knightshade]

Wait....Wait.

again.... If I'm using what I call FSD ( single blue line down the center of the lane )

Then you are calling it the wrong thing.

And will probably keep being confused until you stop doing that.

features in my car and then I move the steering wheel and FSD disengages ( double blue lines - shows lines on either side of my lane ) then I'm in Autopilot/TACC.

That is just dropping for Navigate On Autopilot (an OPTIONAL mode you can turn on or off in settings) that is part of BOTH the new FSD package AND the Enhanced Autopilot package) into regular autopilot.

If I recall you bought in 2018 right?

So Nav on AP isn't even part of FSD for you- it's part of Enhanced Autopilot.

This new stoplight/stopsign thing is literally the only FSD-specific function you have received so far. Everything previous was part of EAP for you.

At that point I have to steer but I don't have to use the brake or accelerator. The car no longer steers. I have to steer.

Right?

That's called TACC.

Same behavior as if you just moved the stalk down once with nothing turned on otherwise.

 

[drtimhill]

My confusion is this.

When I double click down on the stalk - I call that engaging FSD ( which is a list of features ).

Now....while FSD is engaged....I move the steering wheel. I have now disengaged FSD and entered "TACC" or "Autopilot" or "regular cruise control" . This mode is no longer steering for me or doing things listed on Tesla's website as FSD.

Autopilot.....I'm confused as what the term "Enables your car to steer" means. ( see below ).

This is how Tesla's website defines it "this morning"
___________________________________________________
1. Autopilot Included with every purchase.

• Enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically for other vehicles and pedestrians within its lane.

2. Full Self-Driving Capability

• Navigate on Autopilot: automatic driving from highway on-ramp to off-ramp including interchanges and overtaking slower cars.
• Auto Lane Change: automatic lane changes while driving on the highway.
• Autopark: both parallel and perpendicular spaces.
• Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really.
• Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control: assisted stops at traffic controlled intersections.

That was the point of my original post. You never "engage" FSD because FSD is a package of features, not a specific thing (as listed in #2 above). So when, for example, you use Smart Summon, you are using an FSD feature. Up till now, most of the FSD features have been discrete things you can turn on, such as Smart Summon or NoA. But with the stop lights/stop sign stuff, the FSD feature is an enhancement to an existing autopilot feature (TACC). So an FSD owner who uses TACC will have stop light handling, while a non-FSD owner will not.

If you read the Tesla manual carefully (it's a grind, I know), you will find that the various stalk operations are always related to "TACC" or "Autosteer". You never "engage" FSD, and more than you "engage" the Tesla premium interior, which is also a package of car features.

-- "TACC" is the cars basic cruise control; maintaining speed with smart speed changes based on following cars.
-- "Autosteer" adds the ability of the car to stay in lane (steer) in addition to TACC (I think this is what you are calling "FSD").
-- "Autopilot" is the name for the TACC+Autosteer package, with some other stuff like lane-keep and emergency braking.
-- "FSD" is the name of the package of all the other driver-assist features, as per the above list #2.
-- "NOA" is one of the FSD features that navigates on freeways (which also seems to be what you call "FSD").
-- "Trafic Light and Stop Sign Control" is another FSD feature that adds traffic light and stop sign handling to TACC.

So, if you have the FSD package, and if you turn the Traffic Light beta feature on, then when you engage TACC the car will respond to traffic lights and stop signs.

 

[turok3000]

"we" who?

Because you can't show me a single thing in writing from when you purchased FSD that promised you that in a FEATURE sense rather than a "name we gave something" sense.

Personal opinion and IANAL:

Thankfully, through FTC false advertising laws "name we gave something" matters though. If you buy something labelled as "green paint" but what you receive is blue paint and the small print you didn't read turned out to say "this paint is actually blue", I'm pretty sure that the FTC would not consider that acceptable. Small print can provide clarifications and conditional exclusions but the product has to meet what would be considered the reasonable expectations implied by the label (regardless of what the seller says elsewhere).

Full: "not lacking or omitting anything; complete"
Self: could refer to the driver or the car. I think it's understood to apply to the car.
Driving: "the control and operation of a motor vehicle."

Ultimately, of course, it would be up to a court to decide but, personally, I think Tesla would have a hard time justifying "FSD" as meaning something other than the equivalent of L3+ autonomy under most conditions.