2020.12.5.6: Traffic Light & Stop Sign Control

[MarcG]

It would be great if all this FSD debate and explanation of how TACC vs AP vs NOA work (RTFM!) is taken somewhere else..

In the meantime, back on topic: does anyone have more details on how the traffic control works in changing light conditions?
For example:

When a traffic light changes from green to yellow after confirmation via stalk or accelerator to proceed was given, does a second warning pop up? And if a second confirmation to proceed is given, will the car actually proceed through a yellow light, or will it ignore confirmation and stop?

Separately, if a light is red while driving up to it and the car is still in the process of slowing down, but the light changes to green before coming to a full stop, can the driver press the accelerator or push down on the gear stalk to proceed through the green lights?

I'd love to see more videos of these conditions if possible, as I'm not able to drive much these days.

 

[Knightshade]

Personal opinion and IANAL:

Thankfully, through FTC false advertising laws "name we gave something" matters though. If you buy something labelled as "green paint" but what you receive is blue paint and the small print you didn't read turned out to say "this paint is actually blue", I'm pretty sure that the FTC would not consider that acceptable.

I don't think that would be the case here...

"paint" is a pretty common industry term across a ton of manufacturers. So is "green" to some degree.


"full self driving capability" is not an industry standard term where there's 5 other car makers who all sell something called FSD that does X... and Tesla is deceptively selling under the same name and it does only Y.

Small print can provide clarifications and conditional exclusions but the product has to meet what would be considered the reasonable expectations implied by the label (regardless of what the seller says elsewhere).

This isn't elsewhere though. It's right there in the product description.

It TELLS YOU what full self driving entails in a specific bullet list of features.

That's not the fine print- that's the list of what the product actually is

The fine print is where they make it (even more clear) that it's an L2 system when you use those features.

Full: "not lacking or omitting anything; complete"
Self: could refer to the driver or the car. I think it's understood to apply to the car.
Driving: "the control and operation of a motor vehicle."

If I buy something labeled "universal remote" but don't read the box to find out it only controls IR devices, not bluetooth ones, I can't sue them because IT SAID UNIVERSAL on it.

Ultimately, of course, it would be up to a court to decide but, personally, I think Tesla would have a hard time justifying "FSD" as meaning something other than the equivalent of L3+ autonomy under most conditions.

Given nobody has even gotten a lawyer willing to take such a case over 3 years after Tesla began selling FSD,... and even a full year after a serious walk-back of promised capabilities in early 2019... I think your reading of the situation might be incorrect.

 

[Magnetic]

I think tesla would be well served to use more distinct colors on the IC when autosteer is engaged versus TACC.... sort of like rainbow road Easter egg, it would be nice to be able to tell in your peripheral vision, if you are truly engaged while in autosteer.... just thinking of ways to make things more clear and unambiguous to the novice

TACC Lights the actual speed in top center of screen blue when activated
AutoPilot/Autosteer places two blue lines on each side of the car on the screen when you are in autopilot. At least on my 2018 model 3. You can clearly see you are in Autopilot.

Not sure what else you'd want. Also the screen will begin turning blue at the top if you aren't actively managing the autopilot by applying torque to the steering wheel. There's lots of warning messages, chimes, vibrations, colors, its a carnival. Let's not forget every ones favorite, the screen of death with the red steering wheel, hands and alarms. That'll get your attention.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Personally, when I bought FSD (back in the promising you at least L4 for $3000 days) my own personal expectation was the existing sensor suite was PROBABLY (though I continue to think a rear radar would've been useful) good enough to offer L3 specifically only on freeways (the places NoA works today)- but almost certainly not anything better.

And if I got THAT for my 3k, I'd be perfectly happy (since the vast majority of my driving is highway anyway)


Still waiting though.

Its coming. Its definitely coming.

I just wouldn't put a time table on Tesla. Elon always states: "We sometimes have timing issues, but we always deliver".

 

[Garlan Garner]

That was the point of my original post. You never "engage" FSD because FSD is a package of features, not a specific thing (as listed in #2 above). So when, for example, you use Smart Summon, you are using an FSD feature. Up till now, most of the FSD features have been discrete things you can turn on, such as Smart Summon or NoA. But with the stop lights/stop sign stuff, the FSD feature is an enhancement to an existing autopilot feature (TACC). So an FSD owner who uses TACC will have stop light handling, while a non-FSD owner will not.

If you read the Tesla manual carefully (it's a grind, I know), you will find that the various stalk operations are always related to "TACC" or "Autosteer". You never "engage" FSD, and more than you "engage" the Tesla premium interior, which is also a package of car features.

-- "TACC" is the cars basic cruise control; maintaining speed with smart speed changes based on following cars.
-- "Autosteer" adds the ability of the car to stay in lane (steer) in addition to TACC (I think this is what you are calling "FSD").
-- "Autopilot" is the name for the TACC+Autosteer package, with some other stuff like lane-keep and emergency braking.
-- "FSD" is the name of the package of all the other driver-assist features, as per the above list #2.
-- "NOA" is one of the FSD features that navigates on freeways (which also seems to be what you call "FSD").
-- "Trafic Light and Stop Sign Control" is another FSD feature that adds traffic light and stop sign handling to TACC.

So, if you have the FSD package, and if you turn the Traffic Light beta feature on, then when you engage TACC the car will respond to traffic lights and stop signs.

Well.....

Thanks

Thanks for taking the time to type all of that. You are correct about the Manual. It changes per release.

@Knightshade Thanks for your explanation(s) as well.

 

[GuyDude]

Been using this all week! Freaking amazing. Works perfectly for me. Even knows when to attempt to slow down for the yellow or keep going through. So much fun

 

[brkaus]

When a traffic light changes from green to yellow after confirmation via stalk or accelerator to proceed was given, does a second warning pop up? And if a second confirmation to proceed is given, will the car actually proceed through a yellow light, or will it ignore confirmation and stop?

I'm hoping it accelerates briskly

 

[Garlan Garner]

Been using this all week! Freaking amazing. Works perfectly for me. Even knows when to attempt to slow down for the yellow or keep going through. So much fun

It works perfectly for me as well.

I suppose that sums it all up for me.

Hey Look here comes 2020.12.10 and 2020.12.11 and 2020.12.11.1. Maybe those releases will have something to talk about.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I'm hoping it accelerates briskly

The yellow light obviously means "go very fast" here in Chicago.

 

[Knightshade]

I'm hoping it accelerates briskly

Elon already has a Starman connection right? Same rules.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Elon already has a Starman connection right? Same rules.

Bingo....you got it.

 

[wtwieder]

I have had inconsistent results with using the accelerator after being stopped at a red light. Sometimes, the car will move forward even though the light is still red. Like you would expect, most of the time it stays stopped. unless the light turns green. I can't account for this inconsistent behavior. I might explain it moving forward on red after a stop. if I had the right turn signal activated. However, this was not always the case. Has anybody else experienced this or have an explanation?

 

[Magnetic]

It would be great if all this FSD debate and explanation of how TACC vs AP vs NOA work (RTFM!) is taken somewhere else..

In the meantime, back on topic: does anyone have more details on how the traffic control works in changing light conditions?
For example:

When a traffic light changes from green to yellow after confirmation via stalk or accelerator to proceed was given, does a second warning pop up? And if a second confirmation to proceed is given, will the car actually proceed through a yellow light, or will it ignore confirmation and stop?

Separately, if a light is red while driving up to it and the car is still in the process of slowing down, but the light changes to green before coming to a full stop, can the driver press the accelerator or push down on the gear stalk to proceed through the green lights?

I'd love to see more videos of these conditions if possible, as I'm not able to drive much these days.

When approaching a traffic light in either TACC or Autopilot regardless of the color of the light, sometimes due to curve it can't even see the light yet it will tell you it is x distance from traffic control device and it will begin to slow. Once you tap the accelerator or pull on the stalk, you have signaled the car it is safe to proceed, regardless of traffic light color. If the light changes, car will continue to proceed because you had indicated it was safe. Now, one caveat, I have not tried it after indicating it was safe to proceed and knowing the light would be red by time I got to it. Maybe someone else on this form can verify what happens if you run the red. Not sure I want to try that one, I think it might trigger the red light warning, which is separate from this. Once you indicate it is safe the car will not prompt you again as the light changes colors.

Again, regardless of color it will slow down, if it changes it will still keep slowing down to a stop unless you had indicate otherwise by accelerator or stalk. Once you indicate it is safe, no do overs as it changes colors it just continues on. The issue becomes if you signaled it to proceed and it continues on and you are not going to make the light, you have to manually intervene by apply brakes otherwise you run the light. You told it to go, so it is going... If the light was faster than you thought, take charge.

 

[JulienW]

When approaching a traffic light in either TACC or Autopilot regardless of the color of the light, sometimes due to curve it can't even see the light yet it will tell you it is x distance from traffic control device and it will begin to slow. Once you tap the accelerator or pull on the stalk, you have signaled the car it is safe to proceed, regardless of traffic light color. If the light changes, car will continue to proceed because you had indicated it was safe....Again, regardless of color it will slow down, if it changes it will still keep slowing down to a stop unless you had indicate otherwise by accelerator or stalk. Once you indicate it is safe, no do overs as it changes colors it just continues on....

Today light was green and was at 600' when car started to decelerate and I hit shift to continue and car went back to speed. Light changed yellow, red and I went to cover brake and car started slowing more aggressively and stopped at the red light. So if it sees red it stops even after you approve it to go.

 

[Knightshade]

When approaching a traffic light in either TACC or Autopilot regardless of the color of the light, sometimes due to curve it can't even see the light yet it will tell you it is x distance from traffic control device and it will begin to slow. Once you tap the accelerator or pull on the stalk, you have signaled the car it is safe to proceed, regardless of traffic light color.

You can't tell the car it's safe if the light is seen as red.

(or perhaps more accurately, the car will ignore you telling it that)

Once it sees the light is red it will attempt to stop even if you'd previously told it safe to go.

(I would assume if you FORCE the issue by holding the accelerator down it will keep going- but I'll wait for someone to double check on that)

 

[DrtyJrze]

Today light was green and was at 600' when car started to decelerate and I hit shift to continue and car went back to speed. Light changed yellow and I went to cover brake and car stared slowing more aggressively and stopped at the red light.

I would imagine this is an easy decision for the car to make. When the light turned yellow it knew the distance to the intersection and your current speed so it calculated that you would not clear the intersection before the light turned red and began to slow for a stop.

At least that’s what I would hope it would do.

 

[Magnetic]

Today light was green and was at 600' when car started to decelerate and I hit shift to continue and car went back to speed. Light changed yellow, red and I went to cover brake and car started slowing more aggressively and stopped at the red light. So if it sees red it stops even after you approve it to go.

Thank you for the clarification. I stand corrected. This is great news on the red.

 

[Magnetic]

You can't tell the car it's safe if the light is seen as red.

(or perhaps more accurately, the car will ignore you telling it that)

Once it sees the light is red it will attempt to stop even if you'd previously told it safe to go.

(I would assume if you FORCE the issue by holding the accelerator down it will keep going- but I'll wait for someone to double check on that)

Thank you for the clarification and the correction to my statement. I have never challenged it with the red, so I was unaware of this capability, I have always manually intervened if I had already signaled it to go. Great to know. Again thank you both.

 

[wtwieder]

I would imagine this is an easy decision for the car to make. When the light turned yellow it knew the distance to the intersection and your current speed so it calculated that you would not clear the intersection before the light turned red and began to slow for a stop.

At least that’s what I would hope it would do.

Actually, the car will slow for a yellow, whether you could get through it before it turns red or not. Furthermore, some yellow lights stay on longer before changing to red than others. Not knowing how long any light would stay yellow, the car will need to slow for every yellow light. So, the car isn't needing to take your current speed into consideration.

 

[GuyDude]

Actually, the car will slow for a yellow, whether you could get through it before it turns red or not. Furthermore, some yellow lights stay on longer before changing to red than others. Not knowing how long any light would stay yellow, the car will need to slow for every yellow light. So, the car isn't needing to take your current speed into consideration.

This is entirely dependent on your distance from the light when the green turns to yellow. I have gone through several yellows with (AP enabled)now that changed on me when I was less then 50’ from the intersection. If you are further away and it detects the yellow it will stop