2020.12.5.6: Traffic Light & Stop Sign Control

[cybergates]

I just took my first drive with Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (Beta) enabled in our December 2018 Model 3 LR Dual Motor. We had the HW3 retrofit on 4/28, and got 2020.12.11.1 software update 5/1, followed by NA-2020.12 map update later in the day, which allowed me to enable the new feature.

Given the stay-at-home measures in place, I only went around an extended local "block".

In no particular order, my observations:

• All autostop features appeared to work the same whether in TACC or Autosteer.
• Speed was constrained to the car's recognized speed limit only in Autosteer. TACC still allowed any speed setting.
• Only a short/quick pedal tap (or stalk tap) was required to override a pending green light stop, or to start up again after a stop. Did not have to press the pedal (or stalk) very far or hold it for any length of time.
• Stopped at residential neighborhood stop signs at test speeds from 15 to 35 mph.
• Stopped at residential neighborhood roundabout (yield sign, crosswalk markings). Nice, since it can't really navigate roundabouts yet. Resumed on pedal/stalk tap and kept the speed manageable while I steered through the roundabout on TACC.
• Offered to stop at residential mid-block crosswalk (crosswalk markings, crosswalk signs, no lights, no stop/yield signs), accepted my override without stopping.
• Offered to stop at green lights, started notifying me at 600', accepted my overrides without stopping.
• If I overrode the stop (or used the stalk/pedal tap to start up again after a stop), and then turned right at that intersection, it kept the speed down while I made the turn and then accelerated to my current speed setting. Sometimes it accelerated a little more than I would have going in to the intersection, but then moderated/slowed while I made the turn.
  
• The car dropped to 20mph in school zones, even though the school zone lights were not flashing. Was able to speed back up to 30 by dropping into TACC.

• It generally starts actual braking later than I normally would. So, I think it is probably using more brake pads (less regen) than I would, and I like to think my stopping practices are a little more comfortable for passengers.

I didn't think to try overriding a stop sign stop before stopping, so can't report on that. I am hoping (and maybe others have already reported) that it will not allow a simple pedal/stalk tap override without stopping, but that it will allow me to hold the pedal on if I feel I need to not stop for some safety reason.

This was a very short drive, and I didn't actually hit any yellow or red lights, so can't report on those. Especially can't report on behaviors when lights change while approaching an intersection (green-yellow, yellow-red, red-green, etc.).

One thing I've been already wishing Autosteer would do is to let me auto-lane-change into a left or right turn lane as I'm approaching an intersection. That would be even more useful now, since the car will now stop.

Anyway, I'm intrigued, and will definitely continue to exercise this feature whenever circumstances seem reasonable and I'm feeling test-y. My attention will be heightened during use, however, not lessened.

similar HW 2.5 Dec 2018 FSD Model 3 LR - how long did the HW3 retrofit take and did they do it by mobile and did u contact them, or did they reach out to you Thanks!

 

[MP3Mike]

similar HW 2.5 Dec 2018 FSD Model 3 LR - how long did the HW3 retrofit take and did they do it by mobile and did u contact them, or did they reach out to you Thanks!

Mobile service won't do the HW3 upgrade on the Model 3 because it requires opening up the liquid cooling system which movie service doesn't do.

 

[RayK]

Mobile service won't do the HW3 upgrade on the Model 3 because it requires opening up the liquid cooling system which movie service doesn't do.

Maybe in your neck of the woods, but I just had mobile service perform the HW3 upgrade, cooling hoses and all. Pretty sure it was the SC out of Santa Clara but I could be wrong. Service took about 90 minutes but I saw somewhere else here that said it required about an hour for them. YMMV.

BTW, @cybergates My HW3 update was scheduled without me having to bug/ask them. I posted about 4 months ago about being a guinea pig for seeing how long it would take for service to proactively contact me.

ref: MASTER THREAD: Model 3 HW3 retrofit questions, wait time, issues

 

[DrtyJrze]

After trying it a few times I stand by my original statement that the speed limit makes this update worthless.

Also, the Steering wheel nag turns on every 10 seconds now which is SUPER annoying.

 

[JulienW]

After trying it a few times I stand by my original statement that the speed limit makes this update worthless.

Also, the Steering wheel nag turns on every 10 seconds now which is SUPER annoying.

I only or mostly use when on TACC. Even 5MPH over on AP was a little too slow to use most of the time. 10MPH over on AP would be the sweet spot IMO.

 

[willow_hiller]

After trying it a few times I stand by my original statement that the speed limit makes this update worthless.

Also, the Steering wheel nag turns on every 10 seconds now which is SUPER annoying.

Have you tried holding the steering wheel?

 

[DrtyJrze]

Have you tried holding the steering wheel?

Actually I have. But the way I hold it doesn’t register. So I have to artificially “turn” the wheel or turn volume up/down.

Nice try/Good job, good effort/etc.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Actually I have. But the way I hold it doesn’t register. So I have to artificially “turn” the wheel or turn volume up/down.

Nice try/Good job, good effort/etc.

Do you use autopilot? This update requires the same amount of force on the steering wheel for me.

 

[DrtyJrze]

Do you use autopilot? This update requires the same amount of force on the steering wheel for me.

Force is the same, time is different. It was 30 seconds before, now it’s 10 seconds. Most roads don’t have curves meaningful enough to apply steering pressure every 10 seconds of driving. That’s ridiculous.

So now we’re doing the speed limit AND either unnecessarily torquing the wheel or changing the volume of a song every 10 seconds. We need an update ASAP.

 

[Mo City]

Mobile service won't do the HW3 upgrade on the Model 3 because it requires opening up the liquid cooling system which movie service doesn't do.

Mobile service did mine yesterday in less than an hour.

 

[M109Rider]

Force is the same, time is different. It was 30 seconds before, now it’s 10 seconds. Most roads don’t have curves meaningful enough to apply steering pressure every 10 seconds of driving. That’s ridiculous.

So now we’re doing the speed limit AND either unnecessarily torquing the wheel or changing the volume of a song every 10 seconds. We need an update ASAP.

These safety nuances, are baked in for those folks that have caused an accident, because they weren’t paying attention, then sued Tesla. If Tesla felt all owners would use the features safely, they wouldn’t be so tight, (for now).
They will loosen up as the system gets perfected.

So, we have to live with what you call ridiculous, because of other owners, not Tesla.

Be patient, it will improve.

 

[C141medic]

So, just returned from a 350 mile trip and had the opportunity to test out the new FW update. My 2 cents:

Traffic Lights:

1. For majority of traffic lights it worked perfectly and as others have described.

2. For more complicated intersections, with multiple traffic lights in close proximity to another intersection with traffic control, the car seemed to balk a bit. But I think this was mainly due to having to confirm for each traffic control. Once the confirmations are no longer needed I think this shouldn’t be an issue.

3. Turning from a traffic light-this was not so smooth in my opinion. So, I was stopped at the light and when it turned green, I lightly tapped on the accelerator and rather than turning at a safe pace it immediately began to increase speed to match the speed (40MPH) of the road I turned into.

4. This was all using TACC. I didn’t test the FW feature using auto steer. For all traffic lights, I used a light tap on the accelerator rather than the stalk to confirm.

Stop Signs:

In my opinion, this is not quite ready for prime time at the current level of the FW (yes I’m aware it’s BETA) and requires more attention to detail than driving through traffic lights. There were a few issues with this that I experienced.

1. It’s stopping way too early at stop signs. I experienced at least 10-15 feet before. Because of that I wasn’t able to see oncoming traffic (due to not being able to see past blind spots since it stopped so far behind the sign). So the only way to fix that was to move forward. However, if you move forward via tapping the accelerator to confirm, the car continues past the stop instead of actually stopping again once you can see past the blind spots. This really needs to be fixed sooner than later. Here’s a pic I took referencing this:

It was late at night so I experimented with it a little since there was no one else on the road. Immediately after this screenshot, and while on TACC set to about 10MPH, I tapped the accelerator and I turned left. The car turned left and then came to an immediate stop right in the middle of the turn. Very strange.

In summary, this is an exciting FW to test because it’s a prelude to more refined features that I’m sure will be forthcoming. I for one will NOT continue to use/test it at stop signs at the current version of the FW. Perhaps if there’s some improvement later on, I’ll try it. I will however continue to use it on major roads where there are only traffic lights.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Here are my observations with trying this feature using TACC.

• The stops are half way decent. They could definitely slow down a little sooner, and smooth out the stopping.
  
• It doesn't automatically change the TACC set speed when you go from one speed limit to another. This significantly hampers this feature, and makes it way harder to use than it really needs to be.
  
• If you're behind a vehicle that stops for a stop sign it just leaves you sitting there. This creates a UX/UI issue because in this circumstance I just want to move up to the sign, and not go through the stop. If I recall correctly I hit the accelerator and then stopped manually.
  
• It doesn't accelerate from a stop nearly as quickly as it should. So using it from a stop is a bit awkward, but I do acknowledge it's worse for me than the average person since I tend to take off quick. That was kind of the point of getting an EV for me.
• Simply taping, and releasing the accelerator lightly makes the upcoming light notification go away. The only annoying parts were where the green light decided to go yellow just after doing this. I didn't test to see if the car would override my confirmation due to the lights changing color.
• I wish that the car could learn from my driving behavior what speed I liked going on certain roads. I'm not someone who always goes 5mph over or 10mph over. It depends on what type of road it is, and where it's at. Like in my residential area its 25mph, but I never go above 25. There are too many kids, and it's too condensed. So I'm typically going 22 or less. Then outside of my residential area it's 35mph where I travel 40mph before encountering a 25mph section. Now this 25mph section used to be a 35mph section, and you'd never know it was 25mph if it wasn't for massive signage. There is also a lot of enforcement so lots of people do 25mph, but I do 35mph. Even on my pedal assist bike I'm doing 30mph, and it's actually my favorite road since it's fun to laugh at the cars stuck behind someone doing 25mph while I'm doing 30mph in the bike lane just up ahead. Although when that happens I get into the lane due to wanting to be further away from debris in the bike lane. Normally it's pretty clean as it's near rich people (hence getting it lowered to 25mph).

All in all with some improvements this feature will be pretty nifty. Now I'm not sure what point there would be in city TACC, but hey at least it's something new and interesting.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

3. Turning from a traffic light-this was not so smooth in my opinion. So, I was stopped at the light and when it turned green, I lightly tapped on the accelerator and rather than turning at a safe pace it immediately began to increase speed to match the speed (40MPH) of the road I turned into.

How'd you get it to update the set speed to match the road the road you turned into?

On mine it never updates when changing from one speed limit to another. As example I set my TACC speed setting to +7mph relative to the speed limit, and then I engaged TACC when the speed limit was 35mph. When I turned right to get onto a 45mph zone the set speed stayed at 42, and never increased to 52 despite the car knowing the new speed limit was 45mph.

I ended up getting into the habit of changing the set speed with the steering wheel knobs before making the turn onto the road with the different speed limit.

 

[C141medic]

How'd you get it to update the set speed to match the road the road you turned into?

Sorry about that. I wasn’t very clear. The road I was on and the road I turned into we’re the same posted speed limit. It’s just that I expected the turn to be smoother and gradually get up to speed rather than an abrupt increase in speed during the turn.

 

[TT97]

How'd you get it to update the set speed to match the road the road you turned into?

The easiest way is to move the lever up to cancel TACC than quickly back down and will reset to the new speed limit.

Also (and it's been a while since I have used this so not sure if still works), touching the speed limit sign display on the center screen will reset TACC to the speed limit (I can't remember if it sets it to the actual speed limit or if it adjusts for relative speed adjustment).

 

[diamond.g]

The easiest way is to move the lever up to cancel TACC than quickly back down and will reset to the new speed limit.

Also (and it's been a while since I have used this so not sure if still works), touching the speed limit sign display on the center screen will reset TACC to the speed limit (I can't remember if it sets it to the actual speed limit or if it adjusts for relative speed adjustment).

Aside from initial activation I am pretty sure TACC has never adjusted for the speed limit. That has been something that required Autosteer.

 

[dougb00]

Last night I experienced a behavior where the car stopped at yield signs entering roundabouts. It came to a complete stop, and I was only able to confirm to continue with the stalk after the stop. I didn’t try overriding with the pedal. I know this has been reported elsewhere in the thread. But I’m wondering if this is the right behavior. Shouldn’t a yield be more like a light, where I can confirm to continue as soon as I see it’s safe to do so?

 

[Garlan Garner]

Last night I experienced a behavior where the car stopped at yield signs entering roundabouts. It came to a complete stop, and I was only able to confirm to continue with the stalk after the stop. I didn’t try overriding with the pedal. I know this has been reported elsewhere in the thread. But I’m wondering if this is the right behavior. Shouldn’t a yield be more like a light, where I can confirm to continue as soon as I see it’s safe to do so?

This feature isn't listed anywhere - so I don't believe there can be an incorrect or correct behavior.

It is what it is.

Its what Tesla does.

 

[dougb00]

This feature isn't listed anywhere - so I don't believe there can be an incorrect or correct behavior.

It is what it is.

Its what Tesla does.

OK, I guess it would be more precise to say “desired” rather than “correct.” In other words, the ideal behavior for a human driver when approaching a yield sign would be to check for traffic, then go ahead without stopping if the way is clear. In the context of this feature, that would be more like the behavior at traffic lights (go ahead if the driver gives confirmation) than stip signs (always stop completely before allowing the driver to confirm going ahead).

Plus, it seems dangerous to stop at a yield when there’s no traffic if there’s another car behind you!