2020.12.5

[Knightshade]

Have you read sandisk’s warranty page? They do not support dash cams or security systems with the usb sticks, the higher end ones that i bought

Because they often have 5 year warranties, and as I mentioned- if your application is multiple high bitrate 4k cams run 24/7, you're gonna run through the rated lifetime of the drive faster than that.

But you're not doing that here

You're recording some ~30 fps 720p cameras- and probably not 24/7 either.

. The heat produced and the protrusion is also a negative. The SD cards with the usb SD card adapter works way better in regards to not failing.

<citation needed>

Math or no math, I’m speaking from personal experience with two different cars.

Ok, and many others are speaking from personal experience who HAVE had SDcard adapter failures. Many more are speaking from personal experience with USB keys who've had 0 issues.

With hundreds of thousands of teslas on the road running dashcam today, a sample size of "two cars" isn't really useful though.


There's plenty of folks who've had failures with both (most commonly with the USB to SDcard adpater for the SDcard)- and also with SSDs (lots of reports of issues there with the last update or two)


There's also plenty of folks who've been using both, with no issues, for a year and a half now since the feature launched.


Tesla themselves explicitly recommends two specific USB keys in the owners manual.... and I'd be willing to bet keys are what the majority of owners use- because it's the most common thing, specifically suggested in the manual, and doesn't require any adapters or extra HW.

Take it with a grain of salt if you wish, but definitely read the sandisk warranty page for their sticks.

Already covered why that's so- and why it's not relevant to the discussion here.

Did you know they don't cover dashcam use on some of their sdcards either?

https://shop.westerndigital.com/warranty

This warranty does not cover use of the Product in connection with the following uses or devices (as determined by SanDisk): (i) normal wear and tear, (ii) video monitoring, security, and surveillance devices, (iii) internet protocol/network cameras, (iv) in-car recording devices/dashboard cameras/black box cameras, (v) display devices that loop video, (vi) continuous recording set top box devices, (vii) continuous data logging devices like servers, or (viii) other excessive uses that exceed normal use in accordance with published instructions.

That's the page you get linked to if you actually read the fine print on some of the SDcard warranties

https://documents.westerndigital.co...-i-microsd/data-sheet-ultra-uhs-i-microsd.pdf

(see footnote 6)


Again, this has nothing to do with the form factor.

SDcards and USB flash keys are both using flash memory

Same basic technology.

It's about the rated # of write cycles for the type of flash they are using.

You can get USB keys with higher rated flash than some SDcards. And vice versa. And you can get both in quality keys or cards with flash that, as I mentioned previously, will be good for at least 5-10 years of Tesla dashcam use in either form factor.



So to me you're better off just buying a quality USB key, rather than needing a quality SDcard AND quality adapter, and doubling the # of points of failure. See again there's many posts about such failures despite your massive experience on TWO whole cars

 

[john5520]

Did you know they don't cover dashcam use on some of their sdcards either?

Of course they don't. That's why they make a 'high endurance' version for dashcam use. Although people use regular SD Cards with no issues.

https://shop.westerndigital.com/warranty

In that very link you posted:

The warranty exclusions set forth in points (ii)-(vii) above do not apply to the following: SanDisk High Endurance Video Monitoring microSD Cards located here.

So to me you're better off just buying a quality USB key, rather than needing a quality SDcard AND quality adapter, and doubling the # of points of failure. See again there's many posts about such failures despite your massive experience on TWO whole cars

And if the adapter goes bad you buy another one for peanuts. They're like $6 or less on Amazon. USB 2.0 adapters are even cheaper.
Though, in my 10 years of taking aviation photos / videos as a hobby, I've never encountered a bad SD card adapter / reader and I've owned quite a few of different speed ratings. I guess I'm the luckiest guy ever.

Again, this has nothing to do with the form factor.

SDcards and USB flash keys are both using flash memory

Same basic technology.

It's about the rated # of write cycles for the type of flash they are using.

It's a little bit more than that. It's also about sustained read/write performance as well as temp range tolerance which becomes more important in vehicles.

And I think if you search the web, you'll find quite a few more nods toward the use of SD Cards rather than USB sticks for the Tesla dashcam. Even on their official forums.

 

[Knightshade]

Of course they don't. That's why they make a 'high endurance' version for dashcam use. Although people use regular SD Cards with no issues.

https://shop.westerndigital.com/warranty

In that very link you posted:

The warranty exclusions set forth in points (ii)-(vii) above do not apply to the following: SanDisk High Endurance Video Monitoring microSD Cards located here.

Right.

Confirming it's the flash not the form factor that matters.

And the car isn't recording anywhere NEAR enough data to require the super high endurance stuff- again the math has been posted many times.

And if the adapter goes bad you buy another one for peanuts.

Or just use a key and not waste 6 bucks regularly.... you do you though.


They're like $6 or less on Amazon. USB 2.0 adapters are even cheaper.
Though, in my 10 years of taking aviation photos / videos as a hobby, I've never encountered a bad SD card adapter / reader and I've owned quite a few of different speed ratings. I guess I'm the luckiest guy ever.

It's a little bit more than that. It's also about sustained read/write performance

Which even cheap/crap keys and cards provide at 5-10 times the speed the car writes at. Good ones of both kinds write at 30x that speed.

Links to benchmarks on over 600 keys have been provided previously showing this fact too.

as well as temp range tolerance which becomes more important in vehicles.

If only cabin overheat protection existed...which is a good idea in a car with so many electronics in it to begin with.

And which keeps the car dozens of degrees cooler than the max temp for even decent USB keys.

And I think if you search the web, you'll find quite a few more nods toward the use of SD Cards rather than USB sticks for the Tesla dashcam. Even on their official forums.

I mean, the actual owners manual only recommends keys, but again you do you.

 

[john5520]

Right.

Confirming it's the flash not the form factor that matters.

No, it's confirming that Sandisk do warranty their high endurance SD Cards for dashcam use. You posted that link as a counter argument. And no one said anything about form factor either.

Or just use a key and not waste 6 bucks regularly.... you do you though.

There is no proof SD Card adapters fail 'regularly'. Certain brands have had issues after a software update from Tesla which was easy to remedy by switching brands. But none of
that lends credence to your assertion that SD Card adapters fail regularly.

Which even cheap/crap keys and cards provide at 5-10 times the speed the car writes at. Good ones of both kinds write at 30x that speed.

Links to benchmarks on over 600 keys have been provided previously showing this fact too.

There are benchmarks and then real-word tests. Some USB keys work fine, many others don't regardless of benchmarks. If the keys worked great and reliably, there would hardly be anyone complaining or recommending
SD Cards / SSDs:

teslatap.com/articles/usb-flash-drives-for-tesla-dashcam-2/

forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/should-use-sd-card-endurance-teslacam

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc-OabDj3-E&feature=youtu.be

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH7KjfDBmGA

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jZHjJ68a1A

And there are many more examples:

If only cabin overheat protection existed...which is a good idea in a car with so many electronics in it to begin with.

If only it worked as advertised every time. Sometimes the temps spike up before the COP kicks in AFTER entering the app on the phone. It's a great system that needs tweaking. And I'm not the only one with this issue. It's common. I combat this now by venting as well.

And which keeps the car dozens of degrees cooler than the max temp for even decent USB keys.

It's better to have a higher buffer for upper limit temp. Especially when you can't 100% rely on COP to keep temps in check. There's also the other side of the spectrum - cold. SD Cards are rated down to -13 whereas USB flash drives are generally around 32F. This doesn't apply to me, but it might surely apply to others. And the USB keys with great temp tolerance cost more.

I mean, the actual owners manual only recommends keys, but again you do you.

The actual owners manuals on Teslas have been modified over the years as more real world data poured in. The maintenance interval section is a good example. And they can't possibly cover every scenario, so in this case, it's a weak argument.

At the end of the day, use what works for you. However, the high endurance SD Cards + adapters are cheap nowadays and they have proven to be reliable despite some adapters having issues. And they are designed for this use case on top of being the recommended go-tos for people with USB stick problems.

For fear of extending an already long-winded back and forth, this is my last post in this thread.

 

[Knightshade]

No, it's confirming that Sandisk do warranty their high endurance SD Cards for dashcam use. You posted that link as a counter argument. And no one said anything about form factor either.

I've explained several times WHY they do that, and why it's not relevant here- you don't seem interested in the facts though.

It's also strange "no one" said anyting about form factor when you appear to be making your entire argument about form fact (SD > keys)

If that's NOT the argument you're trying to make- what is?

There is no proof SD Card adapters fail 'regularly'.

There's exactly as much proof of that as your claim they "work better" than USB keys since both conclusions appear based 100% of your personal experience only.

(less actually since I can at least point to the owners manual as specifically recommending keys but not SDcards)

Certain

brands have had issues Which is true of almost ever after a software update from Tesla

Sure- Just like CERTAIN USB keys have had issues- and CERTAIN SSDs have had issues.

EVERY form factor has had SOME issues over time.

There are benchmarks and then real-word tests.

All of which find all of these form factors can do sustained writes much faster than the car is actually writing.

Some USB keys work fine, many others don't regardless of benchmarks.

<citation needed... again>

If the keys worked great and reliably, there would hardly be anyone complaining or recommending
SD Cards / SSDs

Sure there would.

There's ALWAYS people recommending whatever they personally tried/liked even if it doesn't have any actual advantage- or because they misunderstand the requirements (like your whole IT NEEDS TO BE DASHCAM CERTIFIED! line of reasoning)

And there are many more examples:

Just as there's examples of people having issues with SDcards and readers...and SSDs.

If only it worked as advertised every time. Sometimes the temps spike up before the COP kicks in AFTER entering the app on the phone. It's a great system that needs tweaking. And I'm not the only one with this issue. It's common. I combat this now by venting as well.

I've had my car for a few months shy of 2 years- with COP on it's never come remotely close to 140 inside.

If yours is doing so you might wanna make a service appointment- something's wrong.

The actual owners manuals on Teslas have been modified over the years as more real world data poured in.

Correct!

And guess what they've added fairly recently? (like just in the last couple of months)

Two specific recommended storage devices.

Both USB keys.


no high endurance SDcards with added adapters. No SSDs.


And I mean, it's not that many of THOSE won't work- they will. They're just overkill for this specific application.


Some folks like overkill of course, you do you....And if you've already got one sitting around from some other thing? Go ahead and use it.

But the fact remains there's no technical benefit to buying a storage device capable of 10,000 write cycles when in a decade (longer than most even keep a car) the car is only gonna use 3000 of em and things rated for 3000-5000 cycles don't require extra parts and cost less.

 

[smatthew]

I've had my car for a few months shy of 2 years- with COP on it's never come remotely close to 140 inside.

Yes, but COP only works for what, 18 hours after you last used the car? With quarantine my car is sitting for days at a time. My Tesla has COP enabled and last fall got hot enough to cause a can of Diet Coke to explode when I was out of town.

COP timeout needs to be changed.

BTW: Knightshade will invariable respond saying how easy it is to turn climate control on and off once a day when you're on vacation to reset the COP timeout. That's a hack. And not a very good one. Can't even automate it with TeslaFi because TeslaFi can command climate ON and OFF - but cannot set the default state of "On, but suspended while car unoccupied"

 

[TT97]

Yes, but COP only works for what, 18 hours after you last used the car? With quarantine my car is sitting for days at a time. My Tesla has COP enabled and last fall got hot enough to cause a can of Diet Coke to explode when I was out of town.

COP timeout needs to be changed.

BTW: Knightshade will invariable respond saying how easy it is to turn climate control on and off once a day when you're on vacation to reset the COP timeout. That's a hack. And not a very good one. Can't even automate it with TeslaFi because TeslaFi can command climate ON and OFF - but cannot set the default state of "On, but suspended while car unoccupied"

While TeslaFi can't suspend while car is occupied (and I agree there needs additional options/IFTTT for automations), you can set it up for location specific and/or plugged in/unplugged. Assuming the car is sitting at home, you can set up the automation only to occur when at home (or only if plugged in). You can also set up a similar automation at airport parking lots (once we can travel again).

 

[Knightshade]

Yes, but COP only works for what, 18 hours after you last used the car? With quarantine my car is sitting for days at a time. My Tesla has COP enabled and last fall got hot enough to cause a can of Diet Coke to explode when I was out of town.

COP timeout needs to be changed.

BTW: Knightshade will invariable respond saying how easy it is to turn climate control on and off once a day when you're on vacation to reset the COP timeout. That's a hack. And not a very good one.

I mean, it's not a hack, the timeout is intentional and documented in the manual- so it's the obvious, and built-into-the-app way to reset it without physically touching the car.

Setting something up 3rd party like tesla-fi- THAT would be a hack


Personally when I'm parked like during the quarantine (and it's not like this isn't a pretty weird and unique situation that hasn't come up a ton before...) I'm parked in a garage with no direct sunlight so it's not getting that hot in there anyway- like, warmer than inside my house, but not warm enough to explode drinks or damage USB storage... (both of which I can confirm from years of soda stored in the garage with no explosions, and an old flash drive stored in my tool chest that used to be used for a car with a flashable ECU that I used for years)
.

If I did live someplace where it'd routinely get that hot- like I had to park outside in Phoenix or something I guess? I'd probably put a daily reminder in my phone to reset COP if I planned to park it for a while.



I don't disagree it'd be nice if they let you set your own timeout... but this is the same car company that took what 7 years of mass production before they added the ability to set a STOP time for charging? And even then totally screwed it up and just locked the latest time to 5 AM because I guess that's when the guy who wrote the codes rates go up? And still haven't fixed that to let you set your own TOU time?


Their NN guys are clever- their UI guys, not so much.

 

[smatthew]

While TeslaFi can't suspend while car is occupied (and I agree there needs additional options/IFTTT for automations), you can set it up for location specific and/or plugged in/unplugged. Assuming the car is sitting at home, you can set up the automation only to occur when at home (or only if plugged in). You can also set up a similar automation at airport parking lots (once we can travel again).

You'd think so. You can tell TeslaFi to turn the climate control on. If you get into the car and drive after that command everything is great.
But, if you tell TeslaFi to turn climate control off it will be off the next time you get in the car.
Prior to scheduled departure, I set TeslaFi to turn on the climate control 20 minutes before I was scheduled to depart. I also had a rule that said if the car was at home 30 minutes after my scheduled departure to turn off the climate control.
The car is so automated that getting into the car and having the turn the climate control on is a very annoying first world problem.

 

[burritoboy]

I still don't have this update on my M3. Is my car just not checking for it? I went to the software page and says I'm up to date (I’m on 2020.8.3)

 

[apples]

Looks like they may have pulled this version. Maybe for bugs... who knows but 12.10 is out now granted it doesn’t look like a full roll out on TeslaFi.

Just curious, what did you look at to determine that they may have pulled 2020.12.5?