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2021 M3P preforms worse than LR and a 2019 M3P

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
13,368
17,020
San Diego
Hope there is a fix or I got ripped off.

Did Bjorn test this with the Performance in Track Mode? That would be the appropriate comparison, since that is a huge part of what you are paying for.

The reason for this is three-fold: 1) it is very cold - do you plan to do rapid acceleration at 0-15F with 10-20% SoC? Why? 2) You have new battery cells which have about 4% more energy than the ones in the 2019/2020 Performance. These may be subject to careful analysis by Tesla before they relax restrictions. (Probably explains the huge drop off at 10% in spite of a warmer battery - should have been redone in Track Mode if it wasn’t done that way.) 3) You have a heat pump, which scavenges heat from the battery and allows you to get better efficiency than 2019/2020 but hurts discharge rate and Performance when combined with above factors.

It might help to navigate to a very nearby Supercharger and turn off climate control (use seat heaters, and your awesome new heater steering wheel if you picked up your car recently) for your very low SoC drag strip runs in Pittsburgh during the polar vortex. Also turn on Track Mode.

Also note this data is from Europe. It’s probably the same in the US but I’d consider reviewing data from @MasterC17 and checking out some of his posts before you get too upset over this (you gave Bjorn clicks and he made you upset - so 2021!).
 
Did Bjorn test this with the Performance in Track Mode? That would be the appropriate comparison, since that is a huge part of what you are paying for.

The reason for this is three-fold: 1) it is very cold - do you plan to do rapid acceleration at 0-15F with 10-20% SoC? Why? 2) You have new battery cells which have about 4% more energy than the ones in the 2019/2020 Performance. These may be subject to careful analysis by Tesla before they relax restrictions. (Probably explains the huge drop off at 10% in spite of a warmer battery - should have been redone in Track Mode if it wasn’t done that way.) 3) You have a heat pump, which scavenges heat from the battery and allows you to get better efficiency than 2019/2020 but hurts discharge rate and Performance when combined with above factors.

It might help to navigate to a very nearby Supercharger and turn off climate control (use seat heaters, and your awesome new heater steering wheel if you picked up your car recently) for your very low SoC drag strip runs in Pittsburgh during the polar vortex. Also turn on Track Mode.

Also note this data is from Europe. It’s probably the same in the US but I’d consider reviewing data from @MasterC17 and checking out some of his posts before you get too upset over this (you gave Bjorn clicks and he made you upset - so 2021!).
It’s not just at 10 to 20 percent though. If you compare the 2019 to 2021 WHP is down by over 50 and up to 80 starting at under 70 SOC. That’s a massive drop. It seems hard to believe that cold temps could be responsible for the significant differences between the 2 cars.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
12,683
8,593
It’s not just at 10 to 20 percent though. If you compare the 2019 to 2021 WHP is down by over 50 and up to 80 starting at under 70 SOC. That’s a massive drop. It seems hard to believe that cold temps could be responsible for the significant differences between the 2 cars.
Someone posted the battery temperature differences, was like more than 10 degrees difference (in some cases 20 degrees!) between the two tests. So that invalidates it, as that is most likely the cause than any difference in chemistry (which should be extremely similar). As an engineering type it kind of irks me that this big variable is not controlled for (I didn't watch the video, but even worse if it was not mentioned as the likely obvious cause in differences).

Hi from Munich, Germany. :)
After several BMW, Mercedes, Porsche I ordered my first Tesla Model 3 Performance a couple of weeks ago, which is currently on its way to Germany. After reading and viewing LOTS of information I'm couting the days for the Model 3 to arrive.

Unfortunately I have read bad news about the new 2170L batteries which my M3P will have as well.
According to the test from Bjorn
the 2021 M3P performs MUCH slower on lower state of charge.
With 10% the "old" M3P makes 0-100 in 5,5 seconds wheres the new 2021 takes nearly 15!! seconds.

I'm not sure if this can/will soon be fixed? I'm thinking about cancelling my order and maybe looking for a used 2019 instead :-(

View attachment 635972
 
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SigNC

Active Member
Aug 23, 2017
1,640
1,549
NC
It's generally accepted the new heatpump cars have an issue with pulling the battery down too cold in very cold temps, especially the perf cars with the Panasonic battery. Seems like a pretty easy fix on teslas part to just not allow it to pull the battery down so cold at lower SOC. I also think this is another reason a model 3 needs range mode. In range mode you accept you may have power limits, while in normal mode you know you are going to sacrifice some efficiency to keep better performance.
 
Someone posted the battery temperature differences, was like more than 10 degrees difference (in some cases 20 degrees!) between the two tests. So that invalidates it, as that is most likely the cause than any difference in chemistry (which should be extremely similar). As an engineering type it kind of irks me that this big variable is not controlled for (I didn't watch the video, but even worse if it was not mentioned as the likely obvious cause in differences).
I don’t think this is the correct analysis. I think the fact that the battery was running colder is part of the problem. Someone smarter than me can correct me if I am wrong.
 
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I don’t think this is the correct analysis. I think the fact that the battery was running colder is part of the problem. Someone smarter than me can correct me if I am wrong.

Agreed. At the very lowest SoC the battery temp was very similar. The LG battery is far superior than the Panasonic at lower temps.

I’m sure Tesla will put out an OTA update for this, but right now it’s kinda embarrassing for 21 Perf owners in cold climates.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
12,683
8,593
I don’t think this is the correct analysis. I think the fact that the battery was running colder is part of the problem. Someone smarter than me can correct me if I am wrong.
I've been following batteries since the early days of this forum (have just returned again recently). It's no secret at lower temperatures the voltage (and thus power; plus apparent capacity) drops as temperatures approach 0 degrees, especially being bad at lower SOCs.
discharge.jpg

https://b2b-api.panasonic.eu/file_stream/pids/fileversion/3445
 
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Not according to the posted chart, at 10% it was 13.3 vs 28.3, a 15 degree difference.
Ah I misread the title, you’re comparing the 2019 Performance to the 2021 Performance.

I was comparing the 2021 LR and Performance. At 40% to 20% there was only a ~3 degree difference. At 10% it was basically the same. There’s no defending a 14s 0 - 100km/h and was obviously an oversight on the Engineering team, but fortunately it’s fixable through an update.
 
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Ah I misread the title, you’re comparing the 2019 Performance to the 2021 Performance.

I was comparing the 2021 LR and Performance. At 40% to 20% there was only a ~3 degree difference. At 10% it was basically the same. There’s no defending a 14s 0 - 100km/h and was obviously an oversight on the Engineering team, but fortunately it’s fixable through an update.
I don’t think the problem is that they didn’t warm up the M3P or that the methodology was flawed. I don’t know if the lower temps are the reason for the reduced performance or a byproduct of the reduced performance. In any event, the 2019 is putting out significantly more whp after 70 SOC than the 2021. I’m not thrilled about the LR doing better either but why is the the 2021 so much slower than the 2019?
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
12,683
8,593
I don’t think the problem is that they didn’t warm up the M3P or that the methodology was flawed. I don’t know if the lower temps are the reason for the reduced performance or a byproduct of the reduced performance. In any event, the 2019 is putting out significantly more whp after 70 SOC than the 2021. I’m not thrilled about the LR doing better either but why is the the 2021 so much slower than the 2019?
Again, that's explained by the temperature difference of more than 10 degrees (up to 20 degrees in most cases). I don't know about the LR, I don't have the time to dig through the whole video, would be helpful if some one posts a chart like for the two performance models.
 
Again, that's explained by the temperature difference of more than 10 degrees (up to 20 degrees in most cases). I don't know about the LR, I don't have the time to dig through the whole video, would be helpful if some one posts a chart like for the two performance models.

Ok but the question is why is there a 10 degree difference? It is not tied to ambient temperatures. The whole point is that the 2021 is running much colder than the 2019 under the same ambient temps.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
13,368
17,020
San Diego
It seems hard to believe that cold temps could be responsible for the significant differences between the 2 cars.

I mentioned several differences!!!

The temperature is one of them, but obviously at 10% the LR and the Performance are similar temperatures, as I alluded to above. So that is likely a battery issue or programming issue.

Screen Shot 2021-02-14 at 5.40.34 PM.png



Track mode doesn’t heat up the battery though. How would that even help?

It's hard to know. It might run the heat pump in resistive mode to prevent the battery from cooling down, or at least not suck heat from the battery. Hard to know how they've optimized Track Mode without trying it, though.

I thought a number of people had reported less power being pulled at non-optimal conditions when running in Track Mode, anyway.

At the very lowest SoC the battery temp was very similar.

Yes, as I alluded to.

At 10% it was basically the same. There’s no defending a 14s 0 - 100km/h and was obviously an oversight on the Engineering team, but fortunately it’s fixable through an update.

No, there isn't any defending it, though I doubt it was an oversight! There are several reasons for the discrepancy, most likely, as listed above.

In any event, the 2019 is putting out significantly more whp after 70 SOC than the 2021. I’m not thrilled about the LR doing better either but why is the the 2021 so much slower than the 2019?

It's really hard to say how much slower it is, though it likely is slower at equivalent temps and SoC - but we don't know. You should compare these two vehicles when the battery temperatures are the same, in any case. I suspect the 2021 would still be slower (because of aforementioned other factors), but it would likely do considerably better at 10% SoC at 28C.

Hopefully Bjorn will test under these conditions in Track Mode. But it's not likely to eliminate the gap, is my guess.

Time may well eliminate the gap, though there will likely always be differences in non-optimal conditions.

Few people are going to go for a fast 0-60 time unless it's 80-90 degrees F and the battery is nice and warm, anyway. That's closer to the sweet spot.

On the upside, at 90% SoC, even with a cooler battery, the Performance 2021 is faster and puts out more power. Probably a pretty noisy measurement though.
 
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stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
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I get that it’s “super colde” but it’s not like it’s suddenly a stepwise change into poorer performance? It probably worsens gradually as it gets colder?
It's definitely not linear though. For example just looking at that Panasonic graph moving from 60C to 40C there is not much difference. Moving from 40 to 25 starts getting bigger (especially at end of SOC), although it still quite similar for most of SOC. From 25 to 0 there is huge drop, as does lower temps.
 
I mentioned several differences!!!

The temperature is one of them, but obviously at 10% the LR and the Performance are similar temperatures, as I alluded to above. So that is likely a battery issue or programming issue.

View attachment 636832




It's hard to know. It might run the heat pump in resistive mode to prevent the battery from cooling down, or at least not suck heat from the battery. Hard to know how they've optimized Track Mode without trying it, though.

I thought a number of people had reported less power being pulled at non-optimal conditions when running in Track Mode, anyway.



Yes, as I alluded to.



No, there isn't any defending it, though I doubt it was an oversight! There are several reasons for the discrepancy, most likely, as listed above.



It's really hard to say how much slower it is, though it likely is slower at equivalent temps and SoC - but we don't know. You should compare these two vehicles when the battery temperatures are the same, in any case. I suspect the 2021 would still be slower (because of aforementioned other factors), but it would likely do considerably better at 10% SoC at 28C.

Hopefully Bjorn will test under these conditions in Track Mode. But it's not likely to eliminate the gap, is my guess.

Time may well eliminate the gap, though there will likely always be differences in non-optimal conditions.

Few people are going to go for a fast 0-60 time unless it's 80-90 degrees F and the battery is nice and warm, anyway. That's closer to the sweet spot.

On the upside, at 90% SoC, even with a cooler battery, the Performance 2021 is faster and puts out more power. Probably a pretty noisy measurement though.

you keep saying the cars need to be tested at the same battery temps but that’s the point. Under similar conditions one car is running 15 degrees warmer than the other. Not trying to argue but isn’t that the variable we are trying to solve for? Based on my limited understanding of track mode, I don’t see how it matters. Also it’s flippant to say well who cares unless it’s 80 to 90 degrees. Many of us live in the northeast and have more than half a year of temps that are much lower than that. I get that this may be exacerbated by the absurdly low temps but for someone who just shelled out money for a 2021 M3P, this is pretty disappointing. There is no reason at all why a 2021 should perform worse than a 2019 under any circumstances. And if the argument is that range is better even if performance is not, it’s not a good argument for someone who chose to buy a performance model.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
12,683
8,593
you keep saying the cars need to be tested at the same battery temps but that’s the point. Under similar conditions one car is running 15 degrees warmer than the other. Not trying to argue but isn’t that the variable we are trying to solve for? Based on my limited understanding of track mode, I don’t see how it matters. Also it’s flippant to say well who cares unless it’s 80 to 90 degrees. Many of us live in the northeast and have more than half a year of temps that are much lower than that. I get that this may be exacerbated by the absurdly low temps but for someone who just shelled out money for a 2021 M3P, this is pretty disappointing. There is no reason at all why a 2021 should perform worse than a 2019 under any circumstances. And if the argument is that range is better even if performance is not, it’s not a good argument for someone who chose to buy a performance model.
Well it matters which is the variable that caused it, because if it was the battery cells themselves (from a change in battery chemistry) then there is nothing much Tesla can do about it.

If it's simply the battery temp (for whatever reason, heat pump or simply tester not testing in same conditions), that's something that can be solved in software by adjusting how the system prioritizes the heating in the car. I remember Ludicrous mode used to heat up the battery for max power, no reason why Tesla can't add something similar to Track mode.
 

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