2021 M3P preforms worse than LR and a 2019 M3P

[Gasaraki]

Got a source on that as I am seeing different.

All 2021 Model 3 built in the US have the new Panasonic high density battery. That is why the KWh rating is higher.

In the US all Model 3s are made in the US. In Europe, the LR Model 3 seems to be made in China and the Performance seems to be made in the US. In China, all Model 3s are now made in China. China made Model 3s use batteries made by LG Chem and CATL, with an older battery chemistry which contains more cobalt.

Currently, the charging profile and acceleration profile of the new 2021s seems to be different than the 2020 and older Model 3s due to different batteries from different regions.

All batteries discharge slower the lower the state of charge is. Tesla never promised a certain acceleration figure at a certain state of charge so even if the car only does the 0-60 numbers at 100% charge, it matches the advertised acceleration numbers.

 

[clerks]

All batteries discharge slower the lower the state of charge is. Tesla never promised a certain acceleration figure at a certain state of charge so even if the car only does the 0-60 numbers at 100% charge, it matches the advertised acceleration numbers.

while I understand this, if it turns out the 2021 P is substantially slower than the 2019 P as the SOC goes down, it is still a problem for Tesla. Just because Tesla is meeting advertised specs doesn’t mean it won’t affect sales and existing owners don’t have a right to complain. There is a difference between legally liable and customer dissatisfaction.

edit -honest question. If the 2021 hits 0 to 60 in 3.1 seconds at 100 SOC, and say 5 seconds at 90 SOC and say 6 seconds at 80 SOC, would you still defend Tesla as the car being “in spec”? I mean they only advertised 3.1. What about the fact that Tesla doesn’t recommend charging to 100. How does that affect the answer. Is it okay if 3.1 is only achievable for 1 run and after that you can’t meet that again without a recharge?

now let’s say that the prior years version also hits 60 at 3.1 at 100soc, but gets a 4 second at 90soc and a 5 second at 80soc. Would your answer change? What if Tesla didn’t say anything about the fact that changes to the battery changed the times significantly in the newer version? Is there not an issue?

What if you personally just paid 55k for the 2021? Would you be disappointed or would say no problem because both cars hit 3.1 at 100soc? If the latter, I don’t believe you.

 

[Gasaraki]

while I understand this, if it turns out the 2021 P is substantially slower than the 2019 P as the SOC goes down, it is still a problem for Tesla. Just because Tesla is meeting advertised specs doesn’t mean it won’t affect sales and existing owners don’t have a right to complain. There is a difference between legally liable and customer dissatisfaction.

I think we really need to wait for warmer temperatures and do comparisons to get a real 1 to 1. The 2021 does seems to lower the discharge at a slightly higher charge level but the 2021 also hates it when the battery is cold. When this test was done, the 2021 Performance battery was colder (if I remember correctly).

All these things, charge profile and discharge rate can be changed by software. If Tesla thinks that it's safe for the battery to discharge at a higher level at a certain percentage after looking at all the data from new 2021s, they will change the discharge profile. Better safe than sorry for brand new batteries.

 

[clerks]

I think we really need to wait for warmer temperatures and do comparisons to get a real 1 to 1. The 2021 does seems to lower the discharge at a slightly higher charge level but the 2021 also hates it when the battery is cold. When this test was done, the 2021 Performance battery was colder (if I remember correctly).

All these things, charge profile and discharge rate can be changed by software. If Tesla thinks that it's safe for the battery to discharge at a higher level at a certain percentage after looking at all the data from new 2021s, they will change the discharge profile. Better safe than sorry for brand new batteries.

agree 100 percent with all of this. My point is that if the 2021 is underperforming via the 2019, it’s not really okay for Tesla to just say well we get the advertised 3.1 at 100 or 90SoC and that’s the end of the discussion. It’s reasonable to expect the 2021 will perform similarly to the prior version. If this only turns out to be a really cold weather thing then (ie sub zero) I could live with it.

 

[Kerry Blue]

Poor performance is a much bigger problem in ICE cars, having owned many, I can vouch for the fact that very few if any get anywhere near the manufacturer’s figures. My last car was a Hellcat Widebody RedEye, 0-60 low 3s, 800 BHP. Reality for me, mid-4s. At 5,000 ft your 800 BHP is around 680, throw in a hot day and it could be in the low 600s, traction is a huge issue unless you’re on a prepped surface using drag radials, then there’s fuel quality, age and octane, I could go on.
Personally I’m happy to own a performance car that at least gets very close to its stated figures even if that might change with varying conditions.

 

[Apprunner]

Assuming this is sarcasm, the Dragy data is definitely useful. Bjorn recorded at zero to 100kmh at 4.00 at 60SOC and 4.22 at 50SOC for the 2021 versus a 3.68 and 3.71 for the 2019. Not sure if he uses the 1 foot rollout or not.

A prior post said you could find the battery make by looking at the label so you don't have to take the car apart after all

Honestly, I would not buy a 2021 Performance if I knew of this problem. I'd wait until they figured it out or switch battery suppliers. Even at 40% SOC, the prior Performance models could easily break the 4s 0-60 times.

 

[clerks]

Honestly, I would not buy a 2021 Performance if I knew of this problem. I'd wait until they figured it out or switch battery suppliers. Even at 40% SOC, the prior Performance models could easily break the 4s 0-60 times.

unless it’s already too late ...

My guess is that this issue isn’t getting much attention because there just aren’t that many 2021 Ps in the wild yet. I suspect it will gain more traction as the year progresses. As for switching suppliers, that’s not going to happen so there are really only 3 solutions l: (1) we find out that the issue is limited to super cold temps; (2) assuming the issue exists and is real, Tesla offers some software fix or (3) assuming the issue exists, there is no fix because either it can’t be fixed or fixing it would negatively affect longevity and/or range. I suppose a 4th option is just that Bjorns test was flawed and there is no problem.

If I could go back in time, I would have held off purchasing until I understood the scope of the issue.

 

[yavore]

unless it’s already too late ...

My guess is that this issue isn’t getting much attention because there just aren’t that many 2021 Ps in the wild yet. I suspect it will gain more traction as the year progresses. As for switching suppliers, that’s not going to happen so there are really only 3 solutions l: (1) we find out that the issue is limited to super cold temps; (2) assuming the issue exists and is real, Tesla offers some software fix or (3) assuming the issue exists, there is no fix because either it can’t be fixed or fixing it would negatively affect longevity and/or range. I suppose a 4th option is just that Bjorns test was flawed and there is no problem.

If I could go back in time, I would have held off purchasing until I understood the scope of the issue.

With temperatures getting higher - do you notice any improvement in the performance at lower SoC ?
Somebody has recommended getting a Dragy - I second that too. Our butt dynos are note always very reliable.

 

[Primolak]

As a person waiting for my M3P to be delivered…. This is frustrating to read.

 

[goRt]

It seems clear to me that in order to show a 10% improvement in efficiency heat is scavenged from the battery, as a direct consequence of this, in cold temperatures, the battery falls out of its optimum operating range and therefore is protected by constraining the power draw.
Now the discussion is about what "cold" is, my guess is heat generated from the motor and battery will need to match the requirement for cabin heat requirement.

A simple software switch to go into performance mode will activate the resistive heater earlier in cold temperatures dropping any efficiency gain but restoring performance in the performance models.

 

[Devils son]

Someone discovered that with the latest update (2021.4.11) the voltage drop is way less restricted and performance at low SoC is up, comparable to the 2020 M3P.

 

[goRt]

It seems clear to me that in order to show a 10% improvement in efficiency heat is scavenged from the battery, as a direct consequence of this, in cold temperatures, the battery falls out of its optimum operating range and therefore is protected by constraining the power draw.
Now the discussion is about what "cold" is, my guess is heat generated from the motor and battery will need to match the requirement for cabin heat requirement.

A simple software switch to go into performance mode will activate the resistive heater earlier in cold temperatures dropping any efficiency gain but restoring performance in the performance models.

So we're left with the position that this is poor coding - economy belongs in chill mode and sport should have the emphasis on keeping the battery at optimum operating temperature.

 

[arghx7]

So we're left with the position that this is poor coding - economy belongs in chill mode and sport should have the emphasis on keeping the battery at optimum operating temperature

Remember, the range has to be certified by the EPA. If they start doing energy inefficient things in the mode used by customers (Sport), the advertised range will go down and it will hurt Tesla's competitive advantage.

 

[eisenb11]

Remember, the range has to be certified by the EPA. If they start doing energy inefficient things in the mode used by customers (Sport), the advertised range will go down and it will hurt Tesla's competitive advantage.

Not necessarily - the EPA tests are still a bit artificial and there are multiple methods of doing the tests - some of which are more simulated than others. Something like this SoC effect could potentially be gamed in some way.

I do know it’s not uncommon for car manufactures to game the result and it also appears that some manufacturers tend to lean conservative in their ratings while others lean the other way.

I generally take EPA ratings with a grain of salt as an interesting but non-exact measurement.

 

[benyl]

Someone discovered that with the latest update (2021.4.11) the voltage drop is way less restricted and performance at low SoC is up, comparable to the 2020 M3P.

It would be interesting to see if there is less restriction on the earlier cars as well. I've noticed on both my 2019 and early 2020 cars that regen and accel dots are fewer when the battery is cold. There is a bit more kick when cold now. Butt dyno isn't super accurate though.