MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[FredMt]

Hello @FredMt and all,

Do you think we can start to add the battery label "AA, AB, ..." in my visual table or do we still need more sample to confirm a theory ?

You re right, "Style" seems to be relevant, but i don t know if we shouln t wait a little.
A different type for E5D ?

And what about before end sequence of reference ? ( "0L" for Perf 2021 ; "00" for 2020 and 2021 LR). Is it release ?
It could be very interesting to have E5D and US E3D pictures. On my side, like you know, i asked for E5D contribution in french forum. Perhaps shoud I asked in German forum too?

 

[EV Promoter]

May I know is your VIN 5YJ (Made in US) or LRW (Made in China)?

Any E5D owner is welcome to report.

I suggest you to study better the entire thread.
There's no LR in EU coming from China, nor LR from China are known to appear anywhere outside China, for the time being.

 

[FredMt]

I have SMT-scanned three M3P refresh now and the rated consumption on all three has been identical at 15.45KWH/rKm.
Also the rated range hasnt changed pre and post the 2020.48.12.1 update. This only applied to the Long Range (and maybe SR+).

Car 1: Nominal Full Pack = 80.2 / Full Rated Range = 496
Car 2: Nominal Full Pack = 79.7 / Full Rated Range = 493
Car 3: Nominal Full Pack = 80.3 / Full Rated Range = 497
Car 4: Nominal Full Pack = 79.0 / Full Rated Range = 488

Could you please confirm that all cars above are M3P ? (Just before you re talking about three M3P scanned)

 

[FredMt]

../..

Vehicle Type, Alleged Type, Verified Capacity, number

Performance, ***, 80-81kWh, 1104423-0L-P
AWD, E3D, ~75kWh, 1104423-00-P
AWD, E3D, ~77.5kWh, ???
AWD, E5D, ~75kWh, ???

We have two missing numbers of interest that I know of.

Found a new reference for M3P 2021.
Performance, E3D, xxxkWh, 1104423-00

Yes i know, it seems to be a reference of a LR... but STYLE is well "CB" as for Performance model 2021.
No SMT-scan is available but display range in car is about 486km.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The

Found a new reference for M3P 2021.
Performance, E3D, xxxkWh, 1104423-00

Yes i know, it seems to be a reference of a LR... but STYLE is well "CB" as for Performance model 2021.
No SMT-scan is available but display range in car is about 486km.

Do you have the actual picture of the label? This seems strange.

 

[Marius A]

The


Do you have the actual picture of the label? This seems strange.

It's from a french forum: Batterie de 82 kWh sur la Model 3 Grande Autonomie version 2021

Edit: BIG! kudos to @FredMt for making all of France take pictures of their batteries. There's loads of them in that thread.

 

[EV Promoter]

New increase in range on the EU LR 2021 - E5D - LG Chem NMC811 battery.

The sequence by now is:

- Original update, 535 km, 74.2 kWh Nominal, Constant 139.5 Wh/km, Degradation 0.40%
- 2020.48.12.1, 545 km, 74.6 kWh Nominal, Constant 137.0 Wh/km, Degradation -0.13%
- 2020.48.26, 549 km, 74.9 kWh Nominal, Constant 136,6 Wh/km, Degradation -0.54%

PS: notice the silly 48.26, with an empty plaza available on screen, the trip window hide part of the car. Not talking about the rest. Fire that UI team.

 

[FredMt]

The
Do you have the actual picture of the label? This seems strange.

It's from a french forum: Batterie de 82 kWh sur la Model 3 Grande Autonomie version 2021

Edit: BIG! kudos to @FredMt for making all of France take pictures of their batteries. There's loads of them in that thread.

Yes it s me on a French forum. I do my best to report informations in both directions

So very strange picture i knew it, and you can believe me it s a M3P.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Yes it s me on a French forum. I do my best to report informations in both directions

So very strange picture i knew it, and you can believe me it s a M3P.

Looking through that forum (fortunately I am somewhat able to read French), it looks like he maxed out at an estimated (extrapolated, not clear from what level) 486km at 100%. So that would be under 79kWh.

So maybe they slapped some old battery in his car. It would be nice to have more info on his constant, details of car, etc.

Oh well. Weird! As you said over there, would be nice to have a picture in better focus...

 

[FredMt]

Looking through that forum (fortunately I am somewhat able to read French), it looks like he maxed out at an estimated (extrapolated, not clear from what level) 486km at 100%. So that would be under 79kWh.

I agree, it s an extrapolated data.

It would be nice to have more info on his constant, details of car, etc.
Oh well. Weird! As you said over there, would be nice to have a picture in better focus...

I gave all informations I had to the person who took the picture. I m waiting for his feed back. If he wants to know more perhaps i could ask him some complementary informations.

 

[TomaGo]

For now with each new photo we have more doubts

The best would be to go to a Tesla parking lot to take 10 or 20 pictures and compare the models, but we have to be able to turn the wheels and they will not want to ...

 

[TimothyHW3]

New increase in range on the EU LR 2021 - E5D - LG Chem NMC811 battery.

I think you will love this video...

@TomaGo you should update that cute chart of yours.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I think you will love this video...

@TomaGo you should update that cute chart of yours.

(Most of this is copied from my response in the other thread...sorry for the cross post, but just want to get the summary out there...)

Summary (to spare people the time, as it is a very difficult video to watch):

Currently Panasonic batteries on some 2021 AWDs in Europe are soft locked to ~75kWh (549km/341 miles), rather than the ~77.8kWh one would expect. "Nominal Full pack" is 77.6kWh in this video, but maximum achievable "nominal remaining" at 100% is just 75kWh, and cell voltage is around 4.148V. (~398V pack voltage). It is not possible to get to the Nominal Full Pack value.

The constant is a little bit below 137Wh/km, as expected (perhaps 136.7Wh/km?)

So currently it appears to be soft locked.

This presumably is to make the range on all AWD vehicles in Europe match, for the time being, whether they have LG or Panasonic batteries.

As a point of reference:
On the old 2019 pack, 4.15V cell voltage was about 96.7%.


Regarding reports in this thread from European owners who saw values consistent with 77.6kWh when charged to 100%:
2021 Model 3 - Charge data

In this link, you can see the car was not actually charged to 100%. To see the soft lock, you have to actually charge to 100% (and you'll find that at 100% SoC the Nominal Remaining will be less than Nominal Full Pack by a few kWh).

So that explains that, perhaps. I'm not aware of any reports to date showing a European Model 3 charged to 568km (but I could be wrong - there's a lot of pages of this thread and I might be forgetting something).

Obviously these limitations only apply in Europe - we have a lot of confirmation here that no such top lock exists in the US at the moment.


Now we just need the cell voltage and battery voltage on the LG battery at 100% charge. Or has that already been reported and I've forgotten?

EDIT: Was in the video at 11:27. (Very hard to watch, and very brief, sorry.).

Shows 4.198V per cell at close to 100%. So unlikely going to be any capacity unlock there. The LG cells just don't have as much energy.

 

[TimothyHW3]

Now we just need the cell voltage and battery voltage on the LG battery at 100% charge.

It is in the video you so "el·o·quent·ly" summarized for everyone...

If I wouldn't know you I would probably, falsely, assume you didn't even watch the video entirely...

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It is in the video you so "el·o·quent·ly" summarized for everyone...

Can you give me the timestamp? There are like 10 minutes of unnecessary video with painful audio, so it was pretty easy to miss something.

I obviously saw your vehicle (at 4:59), but yours looks like a Panasonic.

At 10:36, you show your old 2019 Panasonic.

I'm sorry that I missed the LG. I did watch the video, but the last 6 minutes were basically unwatchable.

Again, the time stamp would be useful to people.

Found it (I guess from a video from elsewhere?):

LG 2021, 11:27, 100%, 4.198V.


So, that would imply that there will be no more capacity coming out of the LGs. They are at ~402-403V at 100%.

Key timestamps for others:

4:59,
10:36
11:27.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

It is in the video you so "el·o·quent·ly" summarized for everyone...

If I wouldn't know you I would probably, falsely, assume you didn't even watch the video entirely...

Thanks for the info. Assuming all of this is good data, it finally gives us the cell voltage info we needed and requested earlier:

1) 2021 Panasonic batteries are soft locked in Europe to around 75kWh, and seem to have max capacity of 77.8kWh or so.
2) 2021 LG batteries apparently have maximum capacity of around 75kWh.

This is evident from the individual cell voltages at 100% (and the Nominal Full pack values, and other circumstantial evidence previously discussed here).

Assuming this is all correct, there's no reason to expect more range out of the LG batteries.

Would be great to get verification from someone with SMT and an LG pack showing the cell voltage at 100%, just as confirmation (I think Timothy got his data from a screen capture of the LG from a YouTube video, which is almost certainly accurate, but he did not identify the source so hopefully he can elaborate).

Presumably this difference would be visible as a difference in regen at 100% on the LG pack vs. the Panasonic pack, but that's more difficult to control for than SMT read backs.

 

[FredMt]

So if I summarize, this is the confirmation in images of various subjects widely discussed here and on others forums. I note in particular the software lock on Panasonic pack in Europe to hide battery capacity differences between LG and Panasonic and show the same range...
I will try to find LG SMT. I think perhaps we have one on french forum.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I will try to find LG SMT.

Thanks. Reiterating: It's the rare 100% SoC one we need, of course. As I said, it's in the video above, and this is just for confirmation.

 

[TimothyHW3]

widely discussed here and on others forums. I

I don't see anywhere mentioned that there is a soft lock on the Panasonic battery. Everyone was assuming that Panasonic 77.8kWh got more capacity... And most of the data points were my own tests, not posted here or anywhere else.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I don't see anywhere mentioned that there is a soft lock on the Panasonic battery. Everyone was assuming that Panasonic 77.8kWh got more capacity... And most of the data points were my own tests, not posted here or anywhere else.

We understood that some E3Ds were limited but we were not sure if they were soft locked Panasonics, or whether they were LGs:

And no, we don't understand why E3Ds (supposed to be Panasonic) are sometimes limited to the same lower capacity (~75kWh) as the E5Ds (supposed to be LG) - there have been many reports of this.

But some E3Ds are not limited (they have 77-78kWh), from what I understand. There have been a couple reports of that, I believe.

And...

First, you have a LOT of regen at 100%, even though it is with a very nice warm battery, that much regen is substantial for 100%. To me that suggests that this battery is not full.

You have provided the data points showing that LGs are apparently full at 75kWh. And the E3Ds (Panasonic) are soft locked, as we suspected might be the case.

The interesting thing now will be to see how much energy was used in the WLTP test result of 580km. Does anyone have the link to the data file? Maybe they managed to achieve that rating with 75kWh? Seems too good, but the WLTP range has not increased that much, after a lot of efficiency improvements, so maybe it is possible.

@TimothyHW3 you posted info in your video on the WLTP test rationale - can you provide the links to the site where this information might be found?

If meeting the WLTP test result is all that is required in Europe (I have no idea), and they did it with 75kWh, then I suppose they would be in the clear...