MASTER THREAD: 2021 Model 3 - Charge data, battery discussion etc

[FredMt]

There are 3 batteries at the moment, not 2.

1) E5D LG ones with nominal full when new at 74.5 (77 listed in the papers, mostly brick protection at the bottom)
2) E3D Panasonic with 77.8 nominal full, on papers listed as 79kWh, old batteries for all cars since 2018.
3) E3D Panasonic in the performance cars only - 81kWh nominal full, listed as 82kWh. A new battery.

No evidence of 82kWh for the AWD model yet.

AWD Panasonic cars show about 545km while full
AWD LG show 535km when full
Ps show 500km when full.

I think you re right. At the moment it s transition between old and new model, so everything may not be final.
I'm a little worried about the LR battery ... What are these LG batteries? Are they manufactured in a gigafactory in the US? I hope that when the production transition will be solved LR will have an 82 battery as well, but I don't really believe it.

 

[TimothyHW3]

Are they manufactured in a gigafactory in the U

In Giga China I believe, LG cells. A little less dense and charge a little slower. So far only in AWD in Europe, might be the US also. Tesla used it in the LR RWD China M3.

As for 82 - all will have the 82 eventually as Panasonic will transition to them. They are 81s really.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

As for 82 - all will have the 82 eventually as Panasonic will transition to them. They are 81s really.

Yeah, eventually, they will. Not sure the timescale here though. Could be 6 months or a year, for all we know.

For now, yes, ~80.5kWh for the Performance packs (that's the only SMT capture I have seen...not sure what the max seen is, so far).

81kWh as an end point would be a failure, assuming the target was 5% increase, since 79.5kWh *1.05 = 83.5kWh per EPA testing numbers, or per SMT, 78kWh*1.05 = 82kWh. So eventually in SMT hopefully we'll see 82kWh, rather than the 80.5kWh we see currently. Might be a while though. When those EPA numbers on Tesla website increase for the Performance, then we'll know to go and look...

 

[FredMt]

Perhaps LG cells (74.5 pack) will only be used during the transition, in fact to solve temporary production rates, but on the other hand, it is not nothing to implement a type of battery and it's hard to believe that Tesla will not go on with the use of those pack in LR after transition.

 

[FredMt]

E3D Panasonic in the performance cars only - 81kWh nominal full, listed as 82kWh. A new battery.

According to this google sheet, thank s to the community, i think you know,

Übersicht 2021 LR / P Batteriekapazität Fahrzeugschein - Google Drive

really no evidence at the moment in Germany (and in Europe, i m afraid) that Panasonic 82kWh is for performance car only,
in this sheet for Performance Model delivered last 2 month, I see more 77Kwh pack than 82kWh pack (precisely when i took a look a week ago, only ten 82kWh pack for a total 27 Performance model delivered with battery size mentioned).

 

[TimothyHW3]

this sheet for Performance Model delivered last 2 month, I see more 77Kwh pack than 82kWh

The data in the papers was wrong. All performance receive 82. And the AWD 79 even if it says 82. This was explained earlier in this thread.

 

[EV Promoter]

What are these LG batteries? Are they manufactured in a gigafactory in the US?

Manunfactured by LG Chem in Nanjing , near Shangai, they are fitting since springtime the Model 3 LR RWD of Tesla Shangai and will go in the MIC Model Y.

Their chemistry is the NMC811 not NCA as the Nevada Panasonic, so a different story.

Unfortunately the chemistry NMC811 by LG CHem is involved in multiple fires in the Hyundai Kona, guilty of LG Chem Chevy Bolt forced reduction in capacity to reduce danger, and giving fires to the NMC811 by CATL.

Too much, too rushed, not enough testing.

LG Chem completes battery spin-off - electrive.com

Apparently, this is not only about battery cells for Tesla’s China plant, Gigafactory 3 near Shanghai. The increased production is not only to be delivered to the Tesla plant in Shanghai but also to Tesla’s factories in Germany and the USA. LG Chem will initially be the sole supplier for the Shanghai-built Model Y. LG Chem’s Chinese plant will also initially supply battery cells for the Model Y produced in the German plant when production begins.

 

[Zoomit]

Unfortunately the chemistry NMC811 by LG CHem is involved in multiple fires in the Hyundai Kona, guilty of LG Chem Chevy Bolt forced reduction in capacity to reduce danger,

The Kona and Bolt EV vehicles in question use NMC622 cathodes, not NMC811.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

According to this google sheet, thank s to the community, i think you know,

Übersicht 2021 LR / P Batteriekapazität Fahrzeugschein - Google Drive

really no evidence at the moment in Germany (and in Europe, i m afraid) that Panasonic 82kWh is for performance car only,
in this sheet for Performance Model delivered last 2 month, I see more 77Kwh pack than 82kWh pack (precisely when i took a look a week ago, only ten 82kWh pack for a total 27 Performance model delivered with battery size mentioned).

These Germans are really disappointing me. Why haven’t they added columns to the spreadsheet with the real world info from each vehicle? My mind is blown.

The Kona and Bolt EV vehicles in question use NMC622 cathodes, not NMC811.

Totally OT, but do you know what chemistry the 2016 Spark used? Have one in my garage, so have a wee bit of concern. This will be my last question on this topic.

 

[Npap]

I thought that in Fremont they only had Panasonic production lines, no? How can a US car have an LG battery? Do we have any links proving that?

 

[Zoomit]

Totally OT, but do you know what chemistry the 2016 Spark used? Have one in my garage, so have a wee bit of concern. This will be my last question on this topic.

IIRC, the 2015+ Spark EVs are NMC622 as well. But I wouldn't be concerned about a fire. I don't think the specific chemistry matters in this case. I am not concerned about either NMC811 or NMC622 cells from LG Chem. I expect the fire hazard is correlated with how the cell is integrated into the pack and BMS software.

And of course, you know enough to not charge it to 100% and let it sit.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

OK, I lied, not my last OT post here. This will be the last one.

And of course, you know enough to not charge it to 100% and let it sit.

Haha. It sits at 100% all the time, as the Spark provides no means of setting a charge level of 90% (or whatever). And since it only has 65 mile range, we can't just leave it at 50% and then charge it to what we need when we need it (plus that is a huge pain).

So 100% it is. Always. I'm sure it'll be fine!

 

[TimothyHW3]

BMS software

Might be true. The Konas receive a BMS software update within the recall that should fix the fire hazard. No hardware changed.
They also request that the cars are delivered to them with 20%. So most likely BMS when full is the issue.
Interesting to see what the voltage of a 100% LG is, no SMT data so far that I know of. They seem to be delivered with some top buffer unlike Panasonic batteries, so that might be prone to more fires at 100%.
Also a lot of these Hyundais and Kias have lost 1/3 of the battery(1 module) over the last year and needed a module or battery replacement. But this could be related to how Hyundai builds the packs and not so much about the cells themselve.

But the LG so far charges slower.

 

[tintinfish]

Bjorn's charging test on 2021 (LG) vs 2019 models:

I'm in the US and I am convinced that I got the LG variant... my battery was 348 mi when full and the charging curve at V3 looks similar to Bjorn's.
I will charge it up and share the energy consumption pictures on Saturday.

I think China's LR RWD models also use the same LG battery? But the charging speed has not improved.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I'm in the US and I am convinced that I got the LG variant... my battery was 348 mi when full and the charging curve at V3 looks similar to Bjorn's.
I will charge it up and share the energy consumption pictures on Saturday.

You have a ~77.8kWh battery (probably works out to 77.6kWh but never mind). (348rmi * 1.609rkm/rmi * 139Wh/rkm = 77.8kWh) Based on the general thinking right now (subject to change), that would indicate you do not have an LG variant.

You can't look at charging curves and say which battery you have: they're so variable, especially at this time of year, it's kind of pointless.

 

[TimothyHW3]

I will charge it up and share the energy consumption pictures on Saturday.

The best and surest way to know if you have the LG is if you drive it down to 5% and at about 35-40% it falls below 100kW. If it does then you have LG.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

If it does then you have LG.

Or, the battery is really cold, if you decide to do this Supercharger test the following morning rather than right after a long drive. It can get cold in San Diego in the mornings, at this time of year, if you live in a valley. We can even get frost every now and again in the valleys!

Anyway, the guy has a 77+kWh battery so it seems that he doesn't have the same capacity limit as those in Europe, anyway (no surprises). Seems perfectly normal, very healthy battery, in line with the prior model year capacity.

 

[khelge]

I would love to see the charging curve of a E3D 21 performance compared to E3D LR 21. Feels like the 21 LR E3D charges slower than the previous LR, but might just be placebo.

Adding picture of my E3D LR 21 at 99% attached

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Feels like the 21 LR E3D charges slower than the previous LR, but might just be placebo.

Seems doubtful. But it would I suppose be interesting to see how fast one of the LG batteries charges as it gets close to 100%, to see whether it's actually top locked (similar to the regen dots test).

 

[BPeter]

I wonder how this plays into these battery differences

https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1339754015354175492

Could they be restricting range on the larger batteries to make them have the same range as the smaller ones?