2022 Solo Nats [2022 Tire Rack SCCA Solo Nationals]

[dsgerbc]

Got a few more e-mails from Rick. He pointed me to the Arizona SCCA results for 2021, where a good driver ran EVX Tesla and took top PAX at almost every event, with national champ-level drivers in the SS field.
Here are some videos of that driver's Tesla runs in his youtube channel.

The "good" news is he's not running in EVX this season.

 

[gearchruncher]

He pointed me to the Arizona SCCA results for 2021, where a good driver ran EVX Tesla and took top PAX at almost every event, with national champ-level drivers in the SS field.

Well, this does answer it I guess. There is a single driver in a single club in 2021 that completely set the EV class for 2022.

The EV driver did do great. But the SS cars he beat are both C7's. (2017 and 2016 Z06). The problem is, the C7 platform is not competitive in SS in 2021 or 2022. It's been completely surpassed by the latest GT3's and GT4's. This is evidenced by the very steep rise in SS PAX- 0.821 in 2019. Then 0.822, then 0.823, then 0.830! That massive jump in 2022 didn't come because the 2017 C7 got faster, or the AM cars got slower. It happened because the GT3's, GT4's, NSX's, and C8's showed up and completely changed the game.

Doug Rowse is an amazing driver as evidenced by his National SS win in 2022, 5th place in 2021, and 3rd in 2019. But he didn't drive a C7 in 21/22- He drove a borrowed 2018 GT3. When he came in 3rd in 2019 in his C7, he lost to brand new NSX's and GT3's.

In the 2021 nationals, a the top C7 came in 34th in SS. Out of 35. It lost by 15 seconds. In 2022, top C7 was 33rd out of 36th, 13 seconds off pace. Yet in 2019, a C7 was 3rd. Times change FAST.

So yeah, if you just compare one EV to one SS car, and only look at the driver of that SS car to judge if that was fair, it can look like EV is faster. But when you look at that the specific SS car, you realize that you should be comparing it to the SS PAX in 2019, not 2022, because that car was last competitive in 2019.

So this explains it- the EV-X PAX is just tracking SS up because the only place it's running competitively isn't running against modern competitive SS cars. Which is fine when you have 500+ events and it all gets averaged out. It doesn't work so well when it's just one region with the exact same cars and drivers all season, and those cars would all lose if a competitive SS car showed up.

And yeah, when Brian Peters switches from a EV to CAM-C, he's still killing it in PAX. Clearly a talented driver and a good reference. But a M3P, he could just barley beat a C7 and thus would never beat a GT3 driven by Doug.

Meanwhile, when Bill Zerr, Multi Time STU champion, runs against Ron Bauer/Kit Gauthier, both multi time SS champs, in their GT3/GT4's, with Bill in a M3P, Bill gets trounced in RAW:

Scorekeeper Results

scorekeeper.wwscc.org

Scorekeeper Results

scorekeeper.wwscc.org

Scorekeeper Results

scorekeeper.wwscc.org

I think we should point this out to Rick, and show him that it appears EV-X is basically the same speed as a C7, not a the modern SS car PAX which is based on GT3/4's.

 

[dsgerbc]

I think we should point this out to Rick, and show him that it appears EV-X is basically the same speed as a C7, not a the modern SS car PAX which is based on GT3/4's.

Maybe, but his existing procedure cannot handle that data. I doubt there is an easy modification that'd work. Maybe expanding beyond the 105% for low-participation classes.
I think I'm gonna try to scrape my own data (and maybe help Rick along the way) and play with it some.

 

[gearchruncher]

Maybe, but his existing procedure cannot handle that data. I doubt there is an easy modification that'd work. Maybe expanding beyond the 105% for low-participation classes.
I think I'm gonna try to scrape my own data (and maybe help Rick along the way) and play with it some.

I fully agree, the current PAX calculations seem reasonable for classes with a lot of nationwide participation. They don't work when there are only a few regions with anyone running the class, in which case it becomes a reference to the other specific cars in that region, not the most competitive cars in that class.

Adjusting the 105% window might be a good first start. It appears an M3P in EV-X is about the same speed as a C7, which was the top SS car in 2019. 2019 SS PAX is 0.821. Current EV PAX is .835. That's a change of about 2%. This means if a great EV driver shows up against a good field of other competitive drivers, the EV will be at the low end of the PAX window and will often get ignored by just being 0.5% off pace when other cars are included up to 2.5% off pace.

However, I don't think that's the only method. The Phoenix region case above shows that if the other cars aren't actually competitive, it can make the EV's look dominant. If there are only a few regions where EV's run competitively, but their competition isn't strong, the window doesn't matter.

I like your goal of scraping your own data- I'd be happy to help as well, maybe we can divide and conquer, and look for all the 2021/2022 EV's we can find and see what the situation actually looks like. Would be amazing if Rick was interested in this and was willing to share the data he already pulls. Even if he was just willing to share where he's seen people running in EV it would be helpful.

 

[M3Pdude]

I plan to just go faster

 

[gearchruncher]

I plan to just go faster

That sounds hard and time consuming. I'd rather argue statistics on the internet to get a formula changed that tells me I'm faster!

3.5 seconds faster on your courses is a big gap to become nationally competitive with the current EV-X PAX though. Maybe we can split the difference, you can get faster and PAX can get a bit more realistic?

 

[M3Pdude]

3.5 seconds faster on your courses is a big gap to become nationally competitive with the current EV-X PAX though. Maybe we can split the difference, you can get faster and PAX can get a bit more realistic?

Solid plan!!

 

[jackmott]

Solid plan!!

if anyone wants to donate to me a set of EVX parts I am capable of setting decent PAX times and I will go do it. =)

 

[dsgerbc]

if anyone wants to donate to me a set of EVX parts I am capable of setting decent PAX times and I will go do it. =)

A partial set of EVX parts then, so that you'd set good but not too-good PAX times in the 102%-105% range we need to bring the EVX PAX down.

 

[jackmott]

A partial set of EVX parts then, so that you'd set good but not too-good PAX times in the 102%-105% range we need to bring the EVX PAX down.

I'm not Mark Daddio or anything we will be ok.

 

[jackmott]

Speaking of, what parts are allowed in EV-X?
Can you do any/all of the control arms? I guess so or nobody would have any negative camber and we would all be useless.

 

[gearchruncher]

A partial set of EVX parts then, so that you'd set good but not too-good PAX times in the 102%-105% range we need to bring the EVX PAX down.

From the results I'm seeing around the USA, you need a full EV-X setup just to get in the 102-105% range to have any hope of even being included in the PAX algorithm. Most EV's in Texas for instance are running 10% below PAX. I managed to find one event where an EV-X hit 104.3% at a local event.

At this point, we have a data from a few good known drivers in an M3P. They just don't set the same PAX times in a M3P as they do in other cars like a Supra or WRX. I mean, even the one time a M3P won Nationals in 2019, it was in BS, won the class by 0.070, and it was 3.4% off lead PAX while driven by a multi time national BS champion. And that was with a .810 index. An EV-X would need to be a full 6% faster than a stock M3P to actually have a chance at top PAX today.

Speaking of, what parts are allowed in EV-X?
Can you do any/all of the control arms? I guess so or nobody would have any negative camber and we would all be useless.

EV-X allows front and rear control arms for camber. It also allows spring changes (stock always allows shocks), ride height changes, and wider wheels that fit under stock fenders. Roll bars are unrestricted. Brakes are unrestricted but that's pointless in AutoX. It's basically STU for EV's.

These are good changes, but are not going to take a M3P up 6%-10% in speed. A full prepped M3P is probably 2-3% faster than a stock car on the same tires, but the base M3P should be a non-competitive BS car now that the Supra exists, not a SS car.

EV-X Ruleset is here: https://www.scca.com/downloads/56244-2021-scca-solo-electric-vehicle-class-rules/download

 

[gearchruncher]

Fun fact, the guy that won 2019 BS in a Model 3 won by 0.05%, then immediately lobbied that it should be an SS car, despite running 2.3% slower than both SS and AS. He then went on to stay in BS, running a Supra in 2021 and 2022. (3rd and 2nd place). This was already after the first 5% power bump, but before the December 2019 one, but he convinced the SEB that a Tesla could get a massive update at any time so it should be in SS just in case.

Member Spotlight: David Marcus

This article first appeared in the September, 2020 edition of SportsCar Magazine. Everyone can read the current and past editions of SportCar digit...

www.scca.com

And now our EV-X PAX is tied to that: It might get an update at any moment that makes it a competitive SS car, so let's set EV-X as SS + a bit.

 

[dsgerbc]

From the results I'm seeing around the USA, you need a full EV-X setup just to get in the 102-105% range to have any hope of even being included in the PAX algorithm. Most EV's in Texas for instance are running 10% below PAX. I managed to find one event where an EV-X hit 104.3% at a local event.

I a region where (1) good drivers are (2) running competitive cars - sure. Plenty of regions where either (1) or (2) holds but not both, so an under 105% is doable in a partially prepared car. I've been doing my part to the best of my ability...

But we cannot risk people PAXing under 102% and bringing the index even higher

 

[dsgerbc]

Fun fact, the guy that won 2019 BS in a Model 3 won by 0.05%, then immediately lobbied that it should be an SS car, despite running 2.3% slower than both SS and AS. He then went on to stay in BS, running a Supra in 2021 and 2022. (3rd and 2nd place). This was already after the first 5% power bump, but before the December 2019 one, but he convinced the SEB that a Tesla could get a massive update at any time so it should be in SS just in case.

Member Spotlight: David Marcus

This article first appeared in the September, 2020 edition of SportsCar Magazine. Everyone can read the current and past editions of SportCar digit...

www.scca.com

And now our EV-X PAX is tied to that: It might get an update at any moment that makes it a competitive SS car, so let's set EV-X as SS + a bit.

A couple well-connected autox'ers in my region were asking me if I'd switch back to stock if model 3 got moved back to BS...
So, at least some people are lobbying to bring it back out of SS.

 

[M3Pdude]

I mean, even the one time a M3P won Nationals in 2019, it was in BS, won the class by 0.070, and it was 3.4% off lead PAX while driven by a multi time national BS champion. And that was with a .810 index. An EV-X would need to be a full 6% faster than a stock M3P to actually have a chance at top PAX today.

Yes, David Marcus is fast. He is my region and I have competed with him quite a bit. He is about impossible to beat in PAX with his .814 when you can BARELY out RAW him. This year's EV-X .835 is stupid.

David was my instructor at APEX performance driving school and in my car crushed me by 5 sec and he claimed to not be going 100%, but I called BS on that. No way he was not going to make a statement. All in good fun!

 

[jackmott]

Fun fact, the guy that won 2019 BS in a Model 3 won by 0.05%, then immediately lobbied that it should be an SS car,

Wow he pulled a Greg Abbott!

 

[dsgerbc]

@M3Pdude just confessed to pushing the EVX PAX up. Get him!

 

[The Other Dan]

Look at this result from yesterday and add to the mix.

I was driving a stock car with PS4S
Dallas had just MPP sport COs with PS4S. No other camber changes.
The other guy had lowering springs and sways on well used 200tw tires.

You'll need to look at the individual runs cause Pronto only shows the 3 comp runs in the overall raw and PAX.

It was a pretty good comparison between Dallas and I since we just had the CO difference. We matched each other run for run on tire pressure. Tires were within 1k miles of use between us. Track mode settings were the same as well.

Event 13 - 9/18 PIR

OREGON REGION SPORTS CAR CLUB OF AMERICA

www.oregonscca.com

 

[superflyrolla]

A couple well-connected autox'ers in my region were asking me if I'd switch back to stock if model 3 got moved back to BS...
So, at least some people are lobbying to bring it back out of SS.

That's a real intriguing question because camber and wider wheels make the model 3 a lot more fun to drive. If the non-Ps went back into D-street, that might be the car to have.

Personally, I would rather we get put into a class with ICE cars than continue developing EVX. STU ideally. CAM would be a nice troll move. Gives us more competition for now and in the future protects the class from being bought by next gen roadster owners or whatever concept EV supercar actually gets put into production.