-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
2022 Solo Nats [2022 Tire Rack SCCA Solo Nationals]
- Thread starter The Other Dan
- Start date
This is essentially what you get at every SCCA regional Packwood event with the exception of the Tesla. The top 5-10 is usually filled with national top 3 drivers in their given class. BUT, Dallas J won't run the Tesla there, because that's where he runs his EVO. I would love to see him run a full season in the Tesla and see what he could do and how the car would get set up.
The main drivers that have hit Nationals the last two years are from the St Louis region, which makes sense given it's proximity to Lincoln.
The EV-X winner this year has run at Nationals in the past.
In 2020 they ran the Tesla in SS, coming in 8 seconds off lead.
In 2019 they ran in a DS Civic Type R, coming in 6 seconds off lead.
In 2018 they ran DS in an old Integra and came in 4 seconds off lead.
In 2017 they ran FS in an M3 and came in 3 seconds off lead.
However, it doesn't look like they have run a single event in 2021 or 2022 in their local region. Which is a shame, the STL region has a couple Model 3's that constantly set top PAX and RAW, so we would have a great comparison. One of those other STL drivers that tops PAX ran in 2021 in ASP and came in 8 seconds off lead for ASP and 4 seconds off for SS. So I don't think STL has any nationally competitive SS/AS drivers, or they have courses that just really favor the Model 3.
I don't really think we have seen what a Model 3 could do with a top tier driver at Nationals. But I also doubt a top tier driver will reliably crush SS, AS, and STU in raw time.
SS results are in. 124.976 leader, which leaves EV-X 5.723 seconds behind RAW. That's a PAX of:
SS: 103.730
AS: 103.633
BS: 104.857
CS: 104.170
DS: 105.065 (class the M3 was kicked out of all the way to SS)
STU: 104.606
EV-X: 109.134 (+5.404 off SS PAX)
I'm not 100% sure where that leaves this event in terms of being added to PAX updates. Looks like the lowest PAX at nationals will be about 102.5 (A CP car ran a 102.8 index). Thus the 95% is 108.2. Any car slower than that is not assumed good enough to update PAX against. So a 109 won't get included even though it was the winner of that class at Nationals.
SS: 103.730
AS: 103.633
BS: 104.857
CS: 104.170
DS: 105.065 (class the M3 was kicked out of all the way to SS)
STU: 104.606
EV-X: 109.134 (+5.404 off SS PAX)
I'm not 100% sure where that leaves this event in terms of being added to PAX updates. Looks like the lowest PAX at nationals will be about 102.5 (A CP car ran a 102.8 index). Thus the 95% is 108.2. Any car slower than that is not assumed good enough to update PAX against. So a 109 won't get included even though it was the winner of that class at Nationals.
Last edited:
Yeah, I've run there and other places. Running against Zerr, I've run +1.5s, +1.1s, +0.3s, +0.9 (RAW, Dry, 200TW tires) this season. Also consistently run within 2 seconds of Bauer who just won SSR on Hoosiers. We just need to get more Teslas out there for more competition! Just such a pain to run at Packwood, and who knows if it will even still exist...
Last edited:
Ya, during the last event, people were thinking it might be the last event ran there. Hopefully the sale falls thru like the last several times.
superflyrolla
Member
Hey. Just got back from Lincoln. I’m the slow guy lol. I’ve been autocrossing seriously for a couple years and still have tons to learn. Was excited to meet other EVX drivers and see their cars. We had more Teslas in ASP last year than EVX this year so that was surprising and disappointing.
IMO, there’s no comparison of the nationals results to any local event I’ve been to unless maybe Nebraska region. The courses are way faster, longer, larger gates, only 3 runs, leave the rubbered in line by a bit and you’re in a sea of OPR. There’s 3 national champs in my region too so at least I think I have an idea how far behind I should be.
My car is a DM LR on 275 Nexen SUR4G. Matt’s car is a stealth P on some pretty worn 295 front 315 rear AO52s. Both daily drivers.
IMO, there’s no comparison of the nationals results to any local event I’ve been to unless maybe Nebraska region. The courses are way faster, longer, larger gates, only 3 runs, leave the rubbered in line by a bit and you’re in a sea of OPR. There’s 3 national champs in my region too so at least I think I have an idea how far behind I should be.
My car is a DM LR on 275 Nexen SUR4G. Matt’s car is a stealth P on some pretty worn 295 front 315 rear AO52s. Both daily drivers.
I am not sure if this helps or hurts the PAX calculations, or if regional clubs are even considered, but I am sitting 4 in PAX in the central Florida SCCA region right now. This puts me first in trophies as the three guys ahead of me don't have enough qualifying events.
1 = ES
2 = SS
3 = FS
4 = EV
1 = ES
2 = SS
3 = FS
4 = EV
SK360
Member
I am also sitting #1 in PAX for the year and #2 is a LR AWD also in EV
3 - CAMS
4 - DS
5 - SSR
6 - SS
7 - CAMS
8 - SSM
9 - FS
10 - XP
Last edited:
Local clubs absolutely do count for the PAX calculation. The person that runs the PAX index says he looks at over 1300 local events every year, and the fact your are published on the internet likely means they are included.
However, PAX is per-event, not per season. It doesn't consider championships at all. Also, PAX looks at relative times, not relative standings. If second place is 0.107 behind first means something quite different than if they are 3.786 behind.
Here's how it works. Let's look at your first event:
Pax Time Results
AXWare Systems (AXWARE_TS) - Autocrossing and Time-trial Solutions. Licensed to:Central Florida Region SCCA
autocross.cfrscca.org
Fastest PAX of the day was 28.757 in an FS car.
95% percent PAX time of this would be 30.195 seconds. Any car slower than this is thrown out, as it's considered to not have a top tier driver. In your case, this means only the top 18 drivers are considered.
Now only class winners are considered. So only the leaders of FS, HS, CS, ES, STU, CAM-C, AS, EV are included in your group. Only 8 drivers.
Now, the median of those 8 drivers is identified. I didn't do the math here, but let's say 29.5 seconds.
Now, for every class faster than 29.5 (FS, HS, CS, ES, STU), the PAX for those cars gets a +1 in the database. For the rest, a -1.
At the end of the year, they see for each class if it's positive or negative, and how positive or negative. They then adjust the PAX index based on that.
So for you, in the first event, your result would be a -1 for EV, slowing the PAX a bit. Looks like for #2 you were +1, 3 was a -1, 4 was a -1, 5 was a +1, 6 was a +1.
Overall, for your 6 results, your PAX is a +0. Per the method, this means the EV PAX is exactly right.
Given the dominance of FS and SS in your club, PAX says that FS's and SS's pax is way too low.
That's an interesting question. Would be a shame if they didn't, about 80% of the events in my area are not technically the SCCA club (all the same people, equipment, locations, etc though). The situation I analyzed above is at an official SCCA club though.
I'm for sure going to write the owner of PAX in the next week or so and see what we can do about the EV-X PAX given the nationals and other results. Just want it to be fair and not push away new people to the sport in what is clearly going to be the future of passenger cars, which is the whole spirit of AutoX. Now that we have our own class, it gets away from messing with the SS/AS group that the SCCA is so keen to protect. He has way more data than I do though, so maybe EV's are really killing it against AS/SS/STU in all the regional results in RAW like the PAX suggests. Just odd that I can't find those types of results anywhere I look. Been holding off since I know he just got back from nationals.
SK360
Member
At our non SCCA events EV is always in the mix for top RAW. Of our 5 events this year I have 2 FTD's, SS has 1, SSR has 1 and SSM has the other.
Last year we ran 11 events, FTD was taken by SMF, EV*4, SSR*2, SS*2, STU, CAMS
Due to our lot size though we tend to have a lot of pinchy slower courses which I'm sure help us out a lot, certainly nothing like courses at nationals.
Last year we ran 11 events, FTD was taken by SMF, EV*4, SSR*2, SS*2, STU, CAMS
Due to our lot size though we tend to have a lot of pinchy slower courses which I'm sure help us out a lot, certainly nothing like courses at nationals.
That's exactly the data that shows that EV should be closer to SS in PAX, not completely dominant against it like the current index indicates.
If SSR doesn't win RAW every time they show up, they're just not a great driver. The SSR cars in my region run 1-2 seconds faster than everyone, but often aren't in the top 5 PAX. Hoosiers will do that. At nationals SSR was 3.5 seconds faster than SS RAW (although also 1 second faster in PAX...)
Interesting you think the slower courses help. In my experience, the more turns there are, the worse a M3P does. I guess it has a lot to do with then how much it relies on acceleration to the next corner.
SK360
Member
I guess it depends on the type of slow. Our last event had some straights and then dreadful pin turns that ended up in some of the less powerful cars grabbing first, terrible design imo but it played right into the Teslas strengths. Even my buddys 2019 GT3 PDK was struggling as it kept bogging second, once he started kicking it down to first manually he had a better time.
But yeah we had a pretty slow "honda" course to open the season last year and top 3 raw were SMF, STU and SMF. EV was 7 & 9
The one guy that runs SSR with us is a great driver but he has a manual 07 GT3, he's fallen behind in the power wars unfortunately
Yes, that is a hopeful future.
The challenge is that the more a PAX gets off reality, the harder it is to fix. Once it's too high, that 95% cutoff means that the PAX algorithm just considers everyone that drives an EV to be a bad driver and ignores them and leaves the PAX where it is and assumes it's a class with no participation,
The fact that the EV-X PAX has gotten harder every single year since the class was formed, despite there not being much data I can see supporting this is what worries me, and I want to make sure it doesn't slide off into the realm of complete fiction. I mean, as it is today, EV-X is already PAX'ed faster than almost any stock car ever made (2022 NSX, Ford GT are not allowed in stock at all). For a car that is not competitive at all in SS, and that lots of people say weighs too much and can't handle, that's pretty odd, and I'm not sure how more results will help fix that given the current results already show the PAX is wrong.
All of this is a lot of academic bench racing though. Once there are enough EV's that there are actually a few at most events, then you can just compete amongst other EV's, like the SS/AS cars get to do. That's way more fun than PAX racing anyway.
I scrolled through the podcast I linked earlier, and I was wrong, non-SCCA club results that feature PAX index times do count.
I already e-mailed him with a few questions trying to keep it academic, w/o explicit references to the class in question.
He got back to me today with a few more relevant tid-bits:
- Allegedly, some regional SCCA sites have a decent-ish description of the process. He didn't say which, so I'll dig around.
- Nationals/tour are processed the same as regular events (with double the weight). So, if every Tesla has so far been outside 105%, there were no data points from competitive fields affecting the EV-X PAX.
- The initial PAX for a new class is an 'educated guess.'
Last edited:
This is my biggest confusion. This makes sense in year 1, and they PAX'd EV-X at 0.824 when SS was 0.822. Since SCCA had put the M3P in SS (correct or not) guessing a supposed SS car with a few mods would be faster is reasonable.
So in 2020, EV-X was +0.002 over SS. In 2021 it was +0.003. But then in 2022 it was +0.005!
2022 EV-X PAX is not a new class. It's the 3rd year. It should not move relative to SS without data that EV-X consistently beat SS in PAX in most events where both an EV-X and SS car were present.
My guess is that there are so few EV-X PAX results and they are still applying an "educated guess" even in years 2 and 3, or everywhere an EV-X runs just has some really cruddy competition (either drivers, or not actually competitive cars in their class).
